Search found 926 matches
- 2024-03-14 04:28, Thursday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [DEV] Content Generation - Ideas, Approaches & Discussions
- Replies: 61
- Views: 6420
Re: [DEV] Weather on 1st turn
But if the player made a save at the Deployment stage . . . the weather in the first turn has already been determined and saved in the save. Now that I've learned this strange secret, to work on the next scenario with Current Weather set to 0, I do two deployment stage saves after the previous scen...
- 2024-03-13 14:10, Wednesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [DEV] Content Generation - Ideas, Approaches & Discussions
- Replies: 61
- Views: 6420
Re: [DEV] Weather on 1st turn
The nuance was revealed when testing the scenario. On the first turn it was planned to use overcast weather and strike by aviation. And while the scenario was tested as a separate one, everything was according to plan and just fine. But during the final testing in the campaign, when the army was de...
- 2024-03-13 01:16, Wednesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
Re: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
It doesn't matter so much what class is a unit, it is the target type that counts. 0 = soft 1 = hard 2 = air 3 = naval Actually, the algorithm works something like this: 1) Hey, attacker-to-be, your intended target is type T (0, 1, 2 or 3). Do you sport a corresponding, positive Attack value (SA, H...
- 2024-03-10 05:26, Sunday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [DEV] Content Generation - Ideas, Approaches & Discussions
- Replies: 61
- Views: 6420
Re: [DEV] ENT Level
ENT Level can be set in pgscn to values much greater than the allowed nine. In tests, even a three-digit ENT number does not cause any problems in the interface and executable program. Assigning for certain units the ability to ignore entrenchment was already discussed two years ago. A clarificatio...
- 2024-03-06 22:52, Wednesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [EDT] Content Editors: Tips & Tricks
- Replies: 39
- Views: 12808
[EDT] FPGE ? It Depends...
Elsewhere in THIS forum: FPGE replaces negative SFP values with a standard blank value when saving a scenario. Even in the case of PGF-SSI styled modding, FPGE is highly problematic. In particular, FPGE often turns files *.PGSCN into unpredictable... garbage. :( Now, when it comes to PGF-CDP styled ...
- 2024-03-06 22:45, Wednesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [DEV] Content Generation - Ideas, Approaches & Discussions
- Replies: 61
- Views: 6420
Re: [DEV] Don't Move ! Various Orders
Without Organic transport this unit can retreat to ocean. As far as I know, this unfortunate behavior has been observed in instances where the unit's Movement Allowance (MA) is ZERO (0). Why resort to such specification? Just give adequate NEGATIVE SFPs to the unit which will definitely last until ...
- 2024-03-06 20:01, Wednesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [DEV] Content Generation - Ideas, Approaches & Discussions
- Replies: 61
- Views: 6420
Re: [DEV] Don't Move ! Various Orders
I am now creating Garrisons out of any necessary unit (INF, ATY, ATG, AD) by creating a clone of it in the eqp file, but with Listed Fuel Capacity (LFC) = Negative (let's say I chose a value of "-4"). And I give this clone Organic transport class 15, all parameters are zero. Everything works fine! ...
- 2024-02-25 20:57, Sunday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [EDT] Content Editors: Tips & Tricks
- Replies: 39
- Views: 12808
[EDT] FPGE -- Uneven Development
Elsewhere in THIS forum: I've tried setting quite difficult win conditions in the pgscn file, using FPGE, and without it. I can tell from the negative results that FPGE handles win conditions different from the simple "All VH" so incorrectly that it cannot be relied upon. For example, in the pgscn f...
- 2024-02-25 20:38, Sunday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: PGF: "Ephemeral" Posts - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 329
- Views: 314086
Re: PGF: Weather zone "0"
Do I understand correctly that there is never any chance of precipitation/overcast in WZ0? This zone always has Clear/ weather and Dry surface conditions? That's my understanding. I speculate SSI developed their core model under "ideal" conditions first . From a programming standpoint, they "had" t...
- 2024-02-22 19:09, Thursday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [OPN] Scale Consistency & Scalability
- Replies: 45
- Views: 15332
Re: [OPN] Scalability of Warships
:howdy Lettos, Is there a difference in whether a Battleship fires its main caliber for an hour at a battalion, or a company, or a division? Or how do you saw a fifth off a heavy cruiser? :huh :( :D Let's face it. SSI never really got down to designing "grognard" warfare models; hence, the "beer & p...
- 2024-02-22 18:40, Thursday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [DEV] Content Generation - Ideas, Approaches & Discussions
- Replies: 61
- Views: 6420
[DEV] Aero-Naval Battle -- I'll Wait
Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # In view of the Herculean efforts Lettos is putting into reshaping aero-naval matters, I'm going to wait until the emerging configuration matures. If I'm going to design "something" involving PGF's AI Module, I may as well go the "SSI-heterodox" way; all th...
- 2024-02-22 08:51, Thursday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: PGF Library: Omnibus Posting - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 16
- Views: 8398
[LIB] Not an Old Fashioned Manual...
Elsewhere in THIS forum: I apologize, I read those studies of yours, but I didn't notice the part where "Dives!" is researched. To begin with, additional empirical evidence never hurts. :2cents The thing to take away from such incidents is that "properly" documenting wargame title software is orders...
- 2024-02-22 08:16, Thursday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
Re: [ADV] Submarine Dives!
:howdy Lettos Three series of 60 bomber attacks were performed in the tests. In two series EXP of the submarine was =500, in one series =0. Submarine STR has been varied, from 10 to 1. It doesn't affect the stats. The number of instances of "Submarine dives!" = 44, 43, 48. That is, in 180 attacks, t...
- 2024-02-22 03:22, Thursday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [DEV] Content Generation - Ideas, Approaches & Discussions
- Replies: 61
- Views: 6420
[DEV] Don't Move ! Various Orders
Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # Don't Move for Awhile Historically, content designers had to rely on House Rules... Recently, NEGATIVE Starting Fuel Point (SFP) specifications in Scenario Definition File *.PGSCN proved their worth and, then, some. Mind you, in order to take advantage of ...
- 2024-02-21 00:33, Wednesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] Fuel Points - Negative Values - Part III
TEMPORARY APPEARANCE... Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # For the purposes of THIS post, it's assumed that BOTH SFP / FP values AND LFC values are NEGATIVE. This is a case of "Algebraic... Indeterminacy". :) Relevant Play System Feature Description 1) There're no obvious restrictions as to...
- 2024-02-20 00:53, Tuesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] Fuel Points - Negative Values - Part II
TEMPORARY APPEARANCE... Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # For the purposes of THIS post, it's assumed that SFP / FP values are NON-NEGATIVE while LFC values are NEGATIVE. This is a case of "Algebraic Overcapacitation". Relevant Play System Feature Description 1) There're no obvious restric...
- 2024-02-19 18:28, Monday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [DEV] Content Generation - Ideas, Approaches & Discussions
- Replies: 61
- Views: 6420
[DEV] Don't Move ! I Mean...
Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # Designing Unit Types which aren't "meant" to move isn't a new subject around here. Historically, the focus has been on AI Module behaviors. To this effect, the practice of "anchoring" units has been resorted to on a number of content design occasions. Rece...
- 2024-02-19 06:12, Monday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: PGF: "Ephemeral" Posts - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 329
- Views: 314086
[EPH] The Big, Big Picture
PGF-CDP is all the rage in THIS Forum these days. To this effect, comparisons or references to SSI and /or PGF's programmer are sort of inevitable. For my part, Content Design & Play Platforms http://forum.open-general.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=616 contains virtually all my relevant observations and ...
- 2024-02-17 04:55, Saturday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] Fuel Points - Negative Values - Part I
TEMPORARY APPEARANCE... Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # Once a content designer utilizes negative integers, he finds himself squarely in "design-for-effect" territory. :bonk For the purposes of THIS post, it's assumed that SFP / FP values are NEGATIVE while LFC values are POSITIVE. Relev...
- 2024-02-13 19:17, Tuesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] Fuel Points - Zero Values
TEMPORARY APPEARANCE... Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # In-Game Fuel Point Exhaustion This is straightforward PGF-SSI territory. Moving on... Starting Fuel Point (SFP) Value Zero ? Case I: Unit Listed Fuel Capacity (LFC) Value -- Positive Technically impossible to set up. PGF's engine in...
- 2024-02-13 03:29, Tuesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] Fuel Points - Undercapacitation
TEMPORARY APPEARANCE... Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # On rare occasions, content designers have resorted to Undercapacitating a unit's fuel by specifying Starting Fuel Points (SFPs) less than the unit's Listed Fuel Capacity (LFC). For the purposes of THIS post, it's still assumed that ...
- 2024-02-12 05:18, Monday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: PGF: "Ephemeral" Posts - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 329
- Views: 314086
- 2024-02-12 03:01, Monday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: PGF: "Ephemeral" Posts - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 329
- Views: 314086
[EPH] Time to be Realistic
Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # In view of the serious as well as timely matters discussed in the previous two posts, I will no longer even be "pretending" that my posts might be of interest to some "unknown hobbyist". Nay ! From this point onward, my posts will be specifically addressed...
- 2024-02-11 21:29, Sunday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
Re: [ADV] Two Useful Hot Keys
Apologies Lettos
[L] ==> Last Combat Log
Sorry about that !
[L] ==> Last Combat Log
Sorry about that !
- 2024-02-11 21:19, Sunday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] ASW Defense
Lettos
Terminological Clarification:
All naval units (targets) exhibit "ASW Defense" values instead of "Close Defense" ones. "ASW" stands for "Anti-Submarine Warfare".
Terminological Clarification:
All naval units (targets) exhibit "ASW Defense" values instead of "Close Defense" ones. "ASW" stands for "Anti-Submarine Warfare".
- 2024-02-11 20:46, Sunday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] Two Useful Hot Keys
:howdy Lettos [Ctrl+Click] ==> Extended Combat Prediction [L] ==> Last Combat Log The first Hot Key addresses an envisaged player's desire (yeah, right ;) ) to know some details as to whether a contemplated attack of his is likely to produce (or not) positive results. It's the second Hot Key which "...
- 2024-02-11 19:10, Sunday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: PGF: "Ephemeral" Posts - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 329
- Views: 314086
[EPH] SSI's "Crowd"
:howdy Lettos, This isn't a particularly enjoyable post. However, as a definite latecomer to SSI's "World", you deserve to hear my opinions... 1) All wargame titles talked about in these Forums exhibit SSI's programming footprint. 2) SSI's "Crowd" essentially consists of forum posters. As for the re...
- 2024-02-11 17:18, Sunday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [DEV] Content Generation - Ideas, Approaches & Discussions
- Replies: 61
- Views: 6420
Re: [DEV] Random Unit Initial Deployments ?
:howdy Lettos, Can you share an idea? :dunno I understand that I need to shuffle the hexes (XX:YY) in the scenario file. Do it randomly. And shuffle within a given range of ocean territory. Take the value of (XX:YY) from the given boundaries. Change it to a different value. Write it to the scenario ...
- 2024-02-11 06:17, Sunday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [DEV] Content Generation - Ideas, Approaches & Discussions
- Replies: 61
- Views: 6420
[DEV] Random Unit Initial Deployments ?
:howdy Lettos, But the thought comes to mind that if you consciously make a scenario on a large map (in shape close to a square), which will be about 1/3 of the land and 2/3 of the ocean, then changing then the starting position of naval units can achieve significant changes in the course of events ...
- 2024-02-09 15:24, Friday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [DEV] Ahistorical Scenarios
- Replies: 10
- Views: 30456
[DEV] Ahistorical Campaigns ?
:howdy Lettos, The game needs excitement, competition. Why is the No-Core Campaign impossible? The player goes through all the scenarios, and looks at his results in PP scores. In the final briefing, a couple of words of approval, praise or motivation for further training can be written depending on...
- 2024-02-09 02:44, Friday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] Fuel Points - Overcapacitation
TEMPORARY APPEARANCE... Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # On occasion, content designers have specified Starting Fuel Point (SFP) values greater than a unit's Listed Fuel Capacity (LFC). That's Overcapacitation. For the purposes of THIS post, it's still assumed that BOTH SFP and LFC values...
- 2024-02-08 20:25, Thursday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] Fuel Points - Basics
TEMPORARY APPEARANCE... Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # The last data section featured in scenario definition file *.PGSCN is entitled "# Units". It hosts a column entitled "Fuel". The column's entries adhere to an integer format. Each value represents the FPs the corresponding unit is g...
- 2024-02-08 02:31, Thursday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] Ammo Points - Negative Values - Part II
TEMPORARY APPEARANCE... Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # I'm a believer in "measured" modding approaches. Namely, a content designer should strive to exhaust all technical possibilities supported by "lower level" avenues before "escalating". In the present context, if something can be acc...
- 2024-02-07 17:43, Wednesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [DEV] Content Generation - Ideas, Approaches & Discussions
- Replies: 61
- Views: 6420
[DEV] Potentially Useful... Dreams
Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # Elsewhere in THIS Forum, I wrote: In a nutshell, the unit keeps on shooting without being afraid of running out of ammo. It can still Resupply with or without Replacements Procurement without losing the benefit of negative {Ammo Point } (AP) values. Moreov...
- 2024-02-07 02:06, Wednesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] Ammo Points - Negative Values - Part I
TEMPORARY APPEARANCE... Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # Once a content designer utilizes negative integers, he finds himself squarely in "design-for-effect" territory. :bonk For the purposes of THIS post, it's assumed that SAP / AP values are NEGATIVE while LAC values are NON-NEGATIVE. R...
- 2024-02-06 00:30, Tuesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] Ammo Points - Zero Values
TEMPORARY APPEARANCE... Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # In-Game Ammo Point Exhaustion This is straightforward PGF-SSI territory. Moving on... Starting Ammo Point (SAP) Value Zero ? Case I: Unit Listed Ammo Capacity (LAC) Value -- Positive Technically impossible to set up. PGF's engine in...
- 2024-02-05 18:08, Monday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] Ammo Points - Undercapacitation
TEMPORARY APPEARANCE... Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # On rare occasions, content designers have resorted to Undercapacitating a unit's ammo by specifying Starting Ammo Points (SAPs) less than the unit's Listed Ammo Capacity (LAC). For the purposes of THIS post, it's still assumed that ...
- 2024-01-23 11:30, Tuesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] Potential Explanation
Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye #
PGF's programmer wrote:
PGF's programmer wrote:
... a weak unit always has a small chance of inflicting some damage to a much stronger opponent as well as a small chance of escaping total destruction from the opponent's (counter)attack.
- 2024-01-19 10:44, Friday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: PGF: "Ephemeral" Posts - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 329
- Views: 314086
[EPH] PzC Icon Feature Adoption ? Non-Negotiable
:howdy Radoye, ... due to the necessary "eye candy" as required by modern commercial game design, modding became a bit more complex - you needed a 3D modeling software to create unit icons that would fit in with the stock ones, and many files needed to be modified... PzC serving as a Content Develop...
- 2024-01-18 13:08, Thursday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: PGF: "Ephemeral" Posts - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 329
- Views: 314086
[EPH] Play Against the AI - Two Design Approaches
:howdy Lettos, ... not necessarily exclusive but, in all probability, mutually exhaustive ! In all my years of involvement with PG1-DOS and PGF, I haven't witnessed anything that even comes close to Lettos' "publicly" documented experimentation regarding the AI Module's in-game behavior. I'm amazed ...
- 2024-01-17 13:56, Wednesday
- Forum: Steel & Lace – The Pub
- Topic: Paths to Nuclear War
- Replies: 14
- Views: 1649
[PNW] Finalmente
As far as my contributions under this topic go, well, this is the end of the line !
As explicitly promised in my first post, the thread I launched was fully intended to be a one off. Consequently, I'm out of here (i.e., the "Pub").
As explicitly promised in my first post, the thread I launched was fully intended to be a one off. Consequently, I'm out of here (i.e., the "Pub").
- 2024-01-17 13:46, Wednesday
- Forum: Steel & Lace – The Pub
- Topic: Paths to Nuclear War
- Replies: 14
- Views: 1649
[PNW] Thoughts - Part IX
Thoughts - Part IX No First Use. Really ? The issue of "renouncing the first use of nuclear weapons" occasionally surfaces in "public" discourse. Truism: If one doesn't possess nuclear weapons, well, there's no need to renounce anything, right ? Okay, what about potential "nukers" though ? Is this ...
- 2024-01-17 04:59, Wednesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] Ammo Points - Overcapacitation
TEMPORARY APPEARANCE... Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # On occasion, content designers have specified Starting Ammo Point (SAP) values greater than a unit's Listed Ammo Capacity (LAC). That's Overcapacitation. For the purposes of THIS post, it's still assumed that BOTH SAP and LAC values...
- 2024-01-16 21:25, Tuesday
- Forum: Steel & Lace – The Pub
- Topic: Paths to Nuclear War
- Replies: 14
- Views: 1649
[PNW] Thoughts - Part VIII
Thoughts - Part VIII Nuclear War: How Many "Sides" ? Can one have a "War" encompassing just one "Side" ? Well, civil war comes to mind but , even then, there're belligerent "Sides" internal to the usual... "Side". What about "Nuclear War" though ? How many "Sides" does it take to have... one ? Time...
- 2024-01-16 16:25, Tuesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: [ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 181
- Views: 67719
[ADV] Ammo Points - Basics
TEMPORARY APPEARANCE... Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye # The last data section featured in scenario definition file *.PGSCN is entitled "# Units". It hosts a column entitled "Ammo". The column's entries adhere to an integer format. Each value represents the APs the corresponding unit is g...
- 2024-01-16 15:33, Tuesday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: Jorge's PGF Center - Downloadable Mods
- Replies: 16
- Views: 12887
Suggested Title Change
Jorge,
Could you change the title of your topic
from
Jorge44 PGF Center - Downloadable Mods
to
Jorge's PGF Center - Downloadable Mods
?
I believe it's going to "read" much, much better. All you need to do is edit the initial post's title.
Thanks
Could you change the title of your topic
from
Jorge44 PGF Center - Downloadable Mods
to
Jorge's PGF Center - Downloadable Mods
?
I believe it's going to "read" much, much better. All you need to do is edit the initial post's title.
Thanks
- 2024-01-16 08:34, Tuesday
- Forum: Steel & Lace – The Pub
- Topic: swords and sandals/historical notes
- Replies: 60
- Views: 14714
Posting Habits...
Posted under topic entitled... "Paths to Nuclear War" :huh in THIS forum: apropos first few post and "world" - of course not related but is good for laugh... reading (pardon) in WC today some text (our) about Elisabeth Olsen, actress and she allegedly by text (never heard, but do not follow) said fe...
- 2024-01-16 03:46, Tuesday
- Forum: Steel & Lace – The Pub
- Topic: Paths to Nuclear War
- Replies: 14
- Views: 1649
[PNW] Thoughts - Part VII
Thoughts - Part VII Operational... Psychology The military personnel formally tasked and expected to carry out the authorized use / launch of nuclear weapons are not think tank armchair types. That said, they're humans subject to their very own personal psychological urges, even demons... From "Cri...
- 2024-01-15 09:02, Monday
- Forum: PG Forever Forum
- Topic: PGF: "Ephemeral" Posts - Questions & Commentary
- Replies: 329
- Views: 314086
[EPH] The Devil's in the Details: Always
:howdy Lettos, Kindly take a look here: Re: [DEV] Negative unit price and fuel http://forum.open-general.com/viewtopic.php?f=95&t=956#p17999 The sober realizations therein shouldn't in any way discourage innovative content designers from trying out creative solutions of immediate or longer term, pot...
- 2024-01-15 04:20, Monday
- Forum: Steel & Lace – The Pub
- Topic: Paths to Nuclear War
- Replies: 14
- Views: 1649
[PNW] Thoughts - Part VI
Thoughts - Part VI Winnable Nuclear War: Think Tank... Logic Sometimes, movie scripts are worth 10,000 pages of think tank position papers... From "Fail Safe" (1964) directed by Sidney Lumet: When the Russians know bombs will fall on Moscow, they will surrender. They know that whatever they do then...