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Bombast the Blue
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Translations

Post by Bombast the Blue » 2020-07-03 22:07, Friday

This is part of an article on Portuguese castles I translated (spoiled onto English) from "Nova História Militar de Portugal".
Its the beginning of the second section of Volume I (the whole thing spans through 5 volumes with over 2500 pages).
Some locally specific terms were left as they were and I should probably make separate translation notes for them...
Things like "presúria" and "fossado"!

Military Architecture
Mário Jorge Barroca

Reconquest period
The first castles
We've already seen that the presúrias of Afonso III over the Douro valley became marked by the appearance of an administrative matrix, based on the civitates. This innovation is contemporary of the first documental references to castles - understood, here, in the strict sense of the word, that is, of walled structures with a small yard, intended to house the military garrison charged with watching and defending a territory and capable of taking in the population in case of threat.
Its appearance constitutes an important novelty, since until then the needs for defense had always been solved by resorting to two different types of structures - military encampments (typical of strongly hierarchical armies, like it was the Roman Army) and fortified settlements. But the conjuncture had changed. The army, like we've seen, had abandoned the hierarchical structure of classical or bizantine inspiration adopting a recruitment system of feudal type. The populating matrix had also been modified. The habitat had stopped being predominantly concentrated and passed frequently to being disperse, the walls losing meaning and efficiency. The castle was, thus, the new base structure of the military landscape in the Christian North. It is in this context that the first references to castles in the Northwest of Portugal appear. We don't know if the local populations already had this type of structures before the arrival of Afonso III's presores. But the first documental references to castles appear shortly after.
The oldest known notice of a castle in Portugal dates back to the year of 870, when "villa Negrelus" (today São Miguel do Paraíso) is localized in the "territorio Bracharensis... subtus mons Caballus prope rivulum Have" (DC, 5) - that is, in the territory of Braga, under the Cavalos mount, next to the river Ave. The expression "subtus mons" (under the mount), very characteristic of the epoch's documentation, does not correspond just, as Carlos Alberto Ferreira de Almeida shown, to a topographic dependence relationship (which sometimes doesn't even exist) but mostly to a relationship of administrative and military character (Almeida. 1978, 25 - 27; 1992, 382 - 383). The "mons Caballus", which correspond today to Nossa Senhora do Monte (Cavalos, freguesia of Serzedelo, concelho of Guimarães), was one of those primitive rocky castles. Its documented from 870 until at least 1013 (DC, 221). Soon after, in 875, the Church of São Martinho de Soalhães is localized "subtus mons Genestaxo... territorio Anegia" (DC, 8). The "mount" of Gestaçô (freguesia of Paços de Gaiolo, concelho of Marco de Canaveses) is documented at least until 1087 (DC, 688). From then on the references to castles multiply at a crescent rhythm. Until the year 1000, in a universe of 183 documents, 71 refer castles (38,8%), to a total of 50 distinct structures. The geographical area of this new phenomenon is, also, easy to delimit: 35 of these 50 structures (that is, 70%) are localized between the rivers Ave and Vouga, concentrating mainly in the Atlantic face, west of Marão and Montemuro. To the north of the Ave we know references to only a castle, and to the south of the Vouga to three. Of the remaining 11 fortifications, 10 are in the area east of the territory of the civitas of Lamego, between the rivers Távora and Côa.
We can, for that, claim that the castle appeared amidst ourselves around 870, when of the first presúrias and the first repopulating efforts, and that the number of these structures raised constantly from the last quarter of the IXth century to the XIth century. Its multiplication is, therefore, a phenomenon posterior to the Asturian occupation of the Douro valley. As Carlos Ferreira de Almeida wrote, "the castles of Entre Douro and Minho, more than to initiate the populating, happen to enlarge, defend and organize it" (Almeida 1978, 47). The chronology here proposed coincides with that of the parallel phenomena which occur in other areas of the Iberian Peninsula and Western Europe. In effect, according to Gabriel Fournier and André Chatelain, castles start being detected in French territory in the second half of the IXth century (Fournier, 1978, 38-41 and next; Chatelain, 1995, 8-9). Those first structures escaped the control of the Carolingian monarchy, which explains the famous Edict of Pistres, promulgated by Charles, the Bald, in the 25th of June, 864, which ordered the demolition of fortifications raised without regal authorization. For the Catalonia zone, the studies of Francesc Fité demonstrated that the first castles appeared earlier, since 830 (Fité, 1989, 195-196; 1993, 8). In the other zones of the Iberian Peninsula the chronologies do not part from the one we find for the western face. In the region of León they appear since 872-874 (Bazzana, 1994, 34; Gutierrez González, 1989, 173: 1995, 46) and in the area of Huesca since the ends of the IXth century (Bazzana, 1994, 35). In Valencia husun start being detected in the final moments of the emirate and in the time of Abd ar-Ramhan III, that is, in the ends of the IXth century and beginnings of the next (Bazzana, 1994, 36). In other meridian areas of the Peninsula the same happens. The Omiad Emirate, in response to the first Norman razings and some bold Christian fossados, proceeds to the construction of husun since the mid IXth century, to the point that, toward the end of the century, the al-Andaluz could be considered "a country of husun" (Catarino, 1997-1998, 11, 579-587). We can, thus, verify a general movement of incastlement which spans all the north of the Iberian Peninsula, on both sides of the border, and some coastal zones of the Peninsula's south. The material structures of the Christian castles and the Muslim husun may well be similar, but encompass some structural differences. The castle appears many times isolated and entrusted to a feudal lord , who exerts not only military powers but, also, other powers (albeit this aspect is ill known before the beginning of the XIth century). The hisn, for its turn, is, normally, a fortified structure linked to a settlement and articulated within a vaster system, dependent of the central power who places an alcaide in it, and who never delivers it to a feudal lord. One opts for individual control of a territory, the other for integration in a vaster net.
Our first castles should be very rudimentary structures. Referred to in documentation by vocables such as "monte" (ou "mons") , "castrum" ou "alpe", corresponded to simple mounts where summary fortification works were carried out: earth dislocations, to form lateral landempties which increased the spot elevation differences and facilitated defense; construction of walls, frequently in sloped shape, with summarily fashioned stone placed in dry, without recourse to mortar. The choice of mounts crowned by rocky outcrops, which could be incorporated in the very wall line, helped minoring the construction effort. In some cases, has show the surviving carvings on the outcrops, they could be constructed with recourse to perishable materials, namely wood. In their majority they would be fortifications almost without architecture, with a sole entrance, without towers and without recourse to other architectonic solutions which only later were adopted by military architecture. They were simple sites of temporary refuge, where populations could be taken in with some goods and cattle, running from enemy incursions. Its importance, however, must have been great, as communities spent considerable energies on them and developed solidarity mechanisms capable of securing not only their construction but, on top of that, their maintenance and operationality (which presupposes territory vigilance and seasonal repair works). Would they be, some of them, castles without lords, fruit of local communities' effort? Maybe, but we cannot be totally sure of that and, much probably, we will never be. The epochs documental sources are very laconic and don't enlighten us on the process of formation of this dense network of small castles nor about their influence on populating. In effect, we shall not confuse the first documental references with the first castles construction moment. We only start to get a little more precise idea in a more advanced phase, when the populations and the powers of this zone had already accepted and assimilated the part of these fortifications as landscape ordaining elements. Let's just observe that, apparently, these earlier and more rudimentary castles were tolerated by the more important fortifications - the county castles and the civitates capitals.

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-07-04 14:27, Saturday

no idea about your purpose of translation - probably some outer work - but nonetheless thanks for posting it here... at least I am interested around

while - generally speaking - we were still barbarian Byzantine border guards (as i theorize by some sources and possibilities) there isn't as detailed works on early middle ages generally, most of spotlight is (due to region importance in another way for ancient empires, they didn't expect invasion from Atlantic and today Portugal of course)) on Roman and Byzantine forts, castles from which centers evolved... so, getting some material which isn't about high-late medieval period is nice read :yes

however, due to later historical events, not much traces of even that late period survived :) leading many to wrong conclusions. I mean if there is some French source stating that some our ruler in pretty weakened country by then i.e. in mid XV c "is maybe one of the richest monarchs in Europe" there must have been something he saw, mildly said :) well, just btw, however Portugal concerned nice read, thanks. You probably knew that Dante put Portugese, Norwegian and Serbian king of his time in same sentence and "inferno" for some crimes.... probably economical ones although some might argue that our he aimed at (while powerful and first to reach Aegean sea with army, named Stefan Milutin) was "pedo" ;) anyway, thanks again and do post whenever you wish, i read... and don't mind me always having humoristic note.

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Re: Translations

Post by Bombast the Blue » 2020-07-04 21:57, Saturday

Ale wrote:
2020-07-04 14:27, Saturday
no idea about your purpose of translation - probably some outer work - but nonetheless thanks for posting it here... at least I am interested around
Actually, concerning purpose, and relating it to this forum, some time into messing with the castles issue it did occur to me that there are parts of the books that are probably more directly appropriate.

Volume 1 starts precisely - discounting introduction and preface - with a section on the "History of the Campaigns", divided in:
"Christian Reconquest 1064-1249" and
"After Reconquest 1249-1325".
46 pages that aren't strictly about the battles but do include them.

Another author picks up in 1325 and goes until 1449.
This includes 40 more pages about "Campaigns that made History"

Those are certainly the bits more in line with local activity, interesting as the rest may be:
Fortification and armament, organization and recruitment, strategy and tactics.

Volume 1 ends with a third part on the (early) Navy.

Of course, other subjects in subsequent volumes will be much more "mainstream", things like:
"The French Invasions" (our own name for our own bit of the Napoleonic Wars) or
"The Great War" (WWI)

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-07-04 23:12, Saturday

in any case - while i take your answer as no :) - do translate (how many...) 1000 pages on middle ages... ;p Rome is also my thing ;

beside Portugal having interesting history itself, you never know what is interesting in addition comparatively... i remember one story of some our artifact from our imperial days (short but strong) been once found in some village in Castile and so on... guess military tacs and equipment is interesting part

if you opened the thread as "translations" from books of some historical paragraphs unrelated to Portugal..... hmmm, maybe you can count me in :lol idk, generally troublesome what to translate so i already fired my arsenal of "interestings" but there are always some to maybe contest some narratives - like for example a tombstone from northern Italy of close relative of catholic bishop in town of Piacenza oe Vicenca or i forgot... on whose stone is "proudly" writen he was a knight of Milutin so called "catholic hater" :) and similar... but i probably belong to some medieval forum and not one of "panzers/modern history" type (although panzer/pancir is same to armour like one on my pic there). whatever you decide is welcome by me, anyway said again

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-07-05 20:27, Sunday

well - after checking - "village in Castile" is town of Cuenca in C-la Mancha, for some reason i thought it was some really small place somewhere near Madrid... this is "moderate town" (still not big however) and center of province... maybe Don Quijote was also in our service sometimes. :) anyway, pardon senoritas for my word use... "important" correction not to make someone offended, pictoresque place... you probably didn't know but we have expression - like some regions across Europe - "Spanish villages" and i didn't use it in that way :lol

however, i couldn't find source of tombstone in Italy but i read it somewhere on paper, maybe town in question is not Vicenza nor Piacenza at all but somewhere in northern Italy it is... not so important as number of medieval Italians in our service is not something questionable at all, catholics even worked on our churches as architects, in army also numerous.

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Re: Translations

Post by Bombast the Blue » 2020-07-07 22:03, Tuesday

Ale wrote:
2020-07-04 23:12, Saturday
but there are always some to maybe contest some narratives
Perhaps not exactly contest but here's something along the lines of "the other guys' view" I read not very long ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crusa ... _Arab_Eyes

While I'm at books I'll throw in another one about even older stuff, which I found very interesting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Cit%C3%A9_antique (its about history of Greek / Roman cities)
Ale wrote:
2020-07-04 23:12, Saturday
but i probably belong to some medieval forum and not one of "panzers/modern history"
If we sort through Open General EFILES/Campaigns we (probably) find a majority of WWII. Still...
But by now it came far from being just WWII.

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Re: Translations

Post by hoza » 2020-07-08 06:27, Wednesday

If you are interested in old ones just look here viewtopic.php?f=8&t=122 :grumpy

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-07-08 12:40, Wednesday

actually - talking to Bombast - "contesting narratives" as i put it is not something reserved to "other's guy view" as you put it, quite often it is - as i talked about in "open mike" thread - contesting own culture narratives or those of similar-less diverse ones... so my example of imperial times is good one as struggle in our case in those days wasn't cultural at all i.e. Serbs vs Byzant (both orthodox realms) or Venice versus Genova or any other. Narrative to contest in case of medieval Serbia is for example - was (just example again) Serb emperor Dušan (or king Milutin I mentioned) really "fanatically orthodox" while in same time giving personal security to predominantly catholic force of German knights and being Venetian citizen, making huge profits on regal rights with catholic traders, among other things etc. number of possibilities goes on in many places... Struggle with Turks is not only event in period covering many centuries, although important one as it marked 350 years long absence from world map ;) In days prior to 1389 Turks where not even considered as big threat and samller skirmishes even ignored... sometimes intentionally i do not want to focus attention on Serb-Turk wars of 1389-1459 as i consider that there are many other interesting events to talk as well and Turkish/Ottoman conquest is already covered enough (in both myth and reality).... when it comes to Portugal and Iberia in general, thanks for notice - to us for example Arabs are subject of no medieval importance, while due to specific history there something considerable i guess.

do post older history stuff if you wish ocassionally - at least i found someone to talk to here :) i might join

"Spanish village/Spanish talk" thing - talking btw - is interesting when one looks at it as experession is used in Saxony, Czech-Slovak lands and similar making story of Serb (and Croat) place of migration to Balkans as more likely and confirmed in such unimportant example... those interested are able to make more certain tracing on map movement from Caspian sea via Saxony to Balkans :yes sometimes even small things show greater "discoveries", for what is worth in this case :)

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Re: Translations

Post by Bombast the Blue » 2020-07-08 20:58, Wednesday

Ale wrote:
2020-07-08 12:40, Wednesday
Narrative to contest in case of medieval Serbia is for example - was (just example again) Serb emperor Dušan (or king Milutin I mentioned) really "fanatically orthodox" while in same time giving personal security to predominantly catholic force of German knights and being Venetian citizen, making huge profits on regal rights with catholic traders, among other things etc. number of possibilities goes on in many places...
So, you're talking about historic players playing all possible pieces on all boards possible, so to speak?
A bit like what happened at what was, arguably, the most (in)famous battle Portuguese historiography paid attention to:
Here it is known as "Battle of Alcácer Quibir"... over there they call it "Battle of the Three Kings"...
The "Portuguese" army did have some Portuguese amidst a collection of allied and mercenary troops, including moroccan fighting... moroccan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... cer_Quibir
Actually, I was there and I fought on both sides too...
Nah, it was just a movie; I had photos posted at JP's but that's all gone too...

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-07-09 20:42, Thursday

:) i visited many such places as well... don't worry about "opinion thing", one sorce is that some battle of Maritsa river in 1371 was won by Turks "because all Serbs were drunk" which i can't negate :lol Forget it - in any case grateful for the thread and input, posting wise for older subjects instead of "mike"... how frequent and if anything at all i don't know, for me just hobby. Here's a paragraph from scientific publication, not even translated by me - authors known multiple in publication but not needed now ) - it is very short and doesn't count as against "copyright laws". That's why i mostly like to use own words :) but it is technicality of maybe interesting nature I've chosen dealing only with ownership - sadly, late medieval period (and state's swan song) although mining started more seriously by late 1100s AND most seriously from 1240s as Saxons settled around in Serbia. It's about Nuovo Monte/Brdo but some said Rascia was "land of hundred mines" back then - must have been very polluted :lol Saxons important but it is almost 99,9% same geographical places and regions where Roman mining was advanced and present in imperial times, must be said first. Terminology in short paragraph is hence some corrupt germanisms and latinism (words) etc. My addition to understanding paragraph is a) why it is said "conflict of interest" at one point, due to regal rights and feudal pyramide in which ruler was "the boss" after all even when ownership and "actions" so to speak were divided and he was the one to (for example) send the army in case of rebellion in mine b) minting was absolute ruler's right (sometimes given to big feudal lords in cases or they tokk it by usurpation) so mines sent a percent of ore to him and also there were "royal markets or squares" where ruler not only collected taxes but also where he had priority during sale or buying of goods/metal... addition to starting sentence :)

"Mining production and trade with metal took place freely; it was allowed to acquire permanent ownership over a mine, the so-called heritage. Next to mines and mining centers, or squares, customs were placed that were leased by the ruler. Mines could have multiple owners. Allowed division of ownership of a mine was into 2, 4, 8 or 16 parts (deo, pars, par, pai). In proportion to the number of parts that they owned, the owners, as members of the mining associations, were entitled to profits, but also had to bear an appropriate part of the costs. Miners are engaged in mines in one of the three ways: (1) Еngaging for a definite period; (2) Тoday, we would say service contractor payment by the length of excavated corridor or the quantity of extracted ore; and (3) Lemšat, the owner assigns the minera part (percentage) of excavated ore. Besides the miners diggers, there were šafari who were experiential and professional people who managed work in the mine. The residents of Novo Brdo, the most developed mining center at that time, asked from Despot Stefan Lazarević to pass a law and he formed a body of 24 good men who drafted the law. To avoid, we would say, a conflict of interest, the Despot formed a body of professional people who were not from Novo Brdo. Code on mines or Novobrdski law is a set of laws that Despot Stefan Lazarević published on 29 January1412."

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Re: Translations

Post by Parabellum » 2020-07-10 09:45, Friday

:howdy Ale, although I live in Saxony, it was not known to me that Saxon miners migrated to Kosovo and Serbia in the Middle Ages to work and live there. I only knew the story so far that they migrated to the west (central Germany) and worked in the Harz Mountains.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschicht ... nd_Serbien
https://www.siebenbuerger.de/zeitung/ar ... ungen.html
Try to translate the links into your language. They are not available in english.
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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-07-10 13:24, Friday

well, Para thanks for input... we will talk about post/job in Saxony you promissed me some time ago later :lol now about history... i just run "fast check" on your links and as one would expect from Wiki there are errors like in substance and years as well, like year of battle at Kosovo being 1387 (instead of 1389) in text and so on. When it comes to other part i.e. "i didn't know" that's why we are here Para and why being part of international forum about history is positive thing. Hope then, it's not only educative but also fun as you put it - and yes, you can freely say that in medieval times Saxons were important factor in economical life of some country your historians never focused on. Numbers are unknown and even their origins here, possibility is that they did not migrate from Hungary at all but came on explicit call from king Stefan Uros I (again wiki in German wrongly named him Milutin) maybe even from other land (including Saxony itself as chance, simply impossible to confitm). Simply we don't have enough documents preserved what is expected from country where there was no continuity in sources keeping and civil life due to conquest. what we (probably) know is that their first center was Brskovo in today Montenegro, so in that sense respecting historical events migration to later political entities is false claim as region was ruled by Serbia i.e. Rascia.... Serbia itself enlarged in phases toward south and east and was (in those days) much more "western positioned" so town Ras was almost center of state while today one could call it almost southern-western edge. Novo Brdo, btw, got a lot of attention due to preserved later sources (and undobtful strategic & economic importance) and was town that had somehow "heroic" status due to 2 year long resistance to siege during so called first fall od Serbia (1439-1441) including Saxon fighters, while despot Đurađ was forced to retreat/flee to Dubrovnik with no more than couple of hundred of loyal heavy/armoured cavalry.

i'll look at your links more later or tomorrow - but generally no need to focus on every line in wikipedia :) however if even this is something new to you I'm glad. Btw, until today we call holes in ground "schacht" probably since those days ) There were certainly no millions nor hundreds of thousands but even some 1000s in medieval terms is significant number.

btw again - Wikipedia is fun for laugh sometimes (i don't negate it being revolutionary and helpful sometimes, for example their link on "Serboi" a Sarmatian tribe is excelence and bulls eye) but normally for some serious knowledge not enough... battle of Maritsa (example i myself mentioned) is one and not 2 battles described similary AND of course that Serb nobles - controlling less than third of ex-Dušan's empire were in no way able to have an army of over 60000 as it is said (at most) that our emperor had (at most) 80000 much before :lol not to mention how much Barbarossa led and so on, hence caution with what you read in Wikipedia :) ...last thought, except for Saxons hope you also like to learn something about others if you like older subjects, i try to make posts fun and "readable", see you later

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-07-11 13:20, Saturday

generally, for a country some 15 times bigger, German historical science not so bad in regards to medieval Serbia... not talking about your link Para, generally some works from German lands in XIX and XX century have unique theories for our realm, some not very good nor correct. Today's political realities and political correctnesses aside, maybe that's global thing as well - so i'll not get "paranoid", historigraphy generally is or should be free of such influences... that's generally, when it comes to particularity in your links about Saxons (in other thread as well when i asked you) there are things one can use in need of book, film or work in comparative way for their settlements here. We only know they had "sui iuris" system of law, religion and life.

talking about books and Maritsa battle (both Serbs and Turks were so drunk to make it double maybe)), there is interesting fantasy work from English author Brian Aldiss taking that event and king-usurpator Vukašin as central theme of story, so if one ever find it... solidly writen in however non scientific way - again feudal states were not national states in modern sense - with some romantism in which author didn't hide sympathy for Serbian history of the time - we both said it is fantasy story - shows some very good knowledge about whole period of history, paradoxally even better than some historians in previous histrorical details :lol (like mentioning Venice, for example)

finally (i'll not post anything before Bombast agin) - i witnessed myself some interest in one English in fantasy-horror sense regarding our history, so must say I'm all for if eventually any future author or filmmaker from their language area (or other) wants to use some of our elements in work of fantasy and make such propaganda. Not in touristic way (nothing to see here, continue on)) but in artistic - there were cool black knights, horned ones... vampires are already taken :) and so on...

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-07-12 19:33, Sunday

however - before concluding subject of Saxons for now (important one) to Para and all interested i found this interesting archive page on modern German "trade" with Serb medieval Dinars (name derivates from our Roman history), above all interesting historically and not as trade.... for which i have no idea if was legal at all :lol (to me it doesn't look at all - it should all be in our museums and price is somehow small imo) but funny to see that any Dinar ever could be "exchanged" for as much as 150 euros :) like our imperial from mid century...

https://web.archive.org/web/20160304205 ... hp5?id=294 if it loads for you

another interesting moment for me to - Dante (again) mentioned Serbian-Rascian mines of Saxons, this time in Paradiso/Paradise part of most famous work. Dante was "gold mine" for our history, but hopefully interesting for German readers :yes

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-07-13 13:45, Monday

now i'd really like to finish ..... :| ..... but i wrongly wrote 150 instead of 250 € (euro) for imperial coins and never gave name of Aldiss' story - name is "The day of the doomed king".

last humoristic thought on "confusion" with Maritsa battle, combining history and vampire folklore - maybe the truth is that Serb nobles initiated "2nd battle of Maritsa" to revenge own death in first one :lol

...thanks to Russian authors as well for propaganda on vampires and similar - to me it is nice when in some their movie kid says line "tell me story about Serbian king" in honestly no Oscar material film :) while some might dislike us being "scary" but some historical elements are cool. as i said before maybe since Celts.... general impresion on folklore and fantasy is that we "stole and combined" a lot from others, while others as well taken some of (maybe) our elements (yeah, i'm aiming on black-horned knights ask Timur)) and so on in history.

mainly added to correct errors - next time you see me here is after another person post, if i find something to talk about. pardon to Bombast if it's not about point of topic :)

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-07-15 15:35, Wednesday

just for interest i was digging some early medieval - predating rise of Rascia when some more mountainous regions were centers of our realms - preserved tribal ruler names trying to find some tie with names one can find in Britain or parts of France - not so many but there are ones like Bran, Bodin, Baldovin and couple of ones ending with -laf etc... due to presence of Normans around and previous Frankish influences in region, just interesting and hardly Celtic per se :) they did left some trace around, however in geography and maybe myth, ritual...

one must be very careful in research and always care about "exonym and endonym" thing... example there is indeed hill Tara in Serbia but one must consider that name is anglican form of Celtic word from Ireland etc. Example 2, Albania and Scotand (Alba and similar) one must consider that "Albania" is exonym and not how people in Balkan country call themselves.... finall example, modern Serb endonym (Srbin) left some clever space to tie that tribe with both Serb and Sirb form :) while it is most likely that it correlates to only Serb- one form from ancient authors of Rome and Hellenistic world, very unlikely to Sirb one in other parts of world, but...

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-07-18 18:16, Saturday

this weekend i finish my "work" on nobility.... so for interest and relaxation, one interesting figure from imperial days i present intentionally :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovan_Oliver

being - most likely - Greek, he had chance to change side many times having ties, as seen in article, there but stayed loyal to our emperor... however as he "disappeared" realtively young shortly after Dušan's death (misterious) there are theories how he was pushed out of family lands near Salonika - Greek revenge by some deposed Jannis/John Cantacuzenos' sympathisers or just pushed out by Serb nobility...

btw, almost in every article on field I know something about there is minor or major mistake, but I already elaborated my warnings about Wiki :) this time link to his second Greek wife is wrong, not that Maria. anyway, nice piece of art if you look at article and his face there is some "Achillean or Odyssean" character trace ... :) eyes are often most ineteresting part i look at medieval paintings (called frescoes) and in the same way I liked emperor Dušan eyes looking above, liked Jovan look in them

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-07-20 00:57, Monday

....best part of that small paragraph about Oliver (objectively deserving a book) is sentence with "....imitating Serbian kings...." which wouldn't be strange for someone from other parts of Europe, but when related to person of era belonging to (old) tribe as Greeks or medieval Italians it sounds nice and flattering :)

since his church was place of most "famous" artisitic representation of our emperor, he's double important as our ancient hero of war and art, though doubt he was some good painter :) ....really, art - i talked about it on dead JP - but now just briefly. Never seen actor so much fitable and appropriate for role of "car" based on one painting than G. Butler... not because of "300" (where he looks too Greeky) but arguably his best role presented under... who doesn't see him on the painted wall in Lesnovo is blind or biased :) perfect match but doubt it'll happen ;) accent also perfect "...beard to beard" ...

https://youtu.be/5ojiOmjtkgM

as much from me for a short art intermezzo, not my field generally, but was nice chance to say how interesting it is artistically

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Re: Translations

Post by Bombast the Blue » 2020-07-22 21:12, Wednesday

Ale wrote:
2020-07-15 15:35, Wednesday
hardly Celtic per se
This one is probably on the other end, with its tales of Arthur, Peredur, Taliesin and the likes: https://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sit ... gion.shtml

(or at least if its not really Celtic it became the basis for the modern idea of...

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-07-23 15:39, Thursday

yes of course, thanks for reminding readers.... knowing that stories (honestly almost everybody knows them due to pop culture propaganda/marketing) is the reason why i sometimes - maybe not factually - give chance for a lot of influence of "Celtic tales" to elements of our myth. No surprise that the "ones with hornes on helmets or black wearing ones" historically are the ones in centre of a myth which might include some "Arthurian influence"........ sad part is (i know you are all crying now)) that will probably never know true historical facts of probably most important battle in our history of the era - maybe not in size but merely for facts that both army leaders were slain in it, rare thing globally - and that some elements like "treason" (tied as paradox to lord which maybe fought the best on the day historically) will persist... etc. regardless if some elements are Celtic or Greek (or even Germanic as some their knights gained fame here) surely something pre-christian, horny and black/dark :)

considering names as conclusion - while some may argue origin of some names like Bodin - Baldovin is surely of foreign origin, recorded in high middle ages and imperial days several times, but our researchers found that that name (for example) was present even among serf class sometimes. Oliver itself is discutable as origin name, but at least we saved everybody trouble by mostly agreing he was of Greek origin as figure :)

thanks for keeping it alive/reading :yes

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-07-24 01:56, Friday

btw, I already talked about it in more details in "open mike" thread so look there... since we touched aubject of mythology and origins it's not trouble repeating and should be here... I know there are people in other countries researching (maybe not as life goal)) mysteries of Serbs (and Croats partly, but they are less important)) where there is indeed a lot of space due to ancient sources, great migrating curve of travel from Asia to Saxony and then Balkans, Sarmatians and other things causing interest...

so, trying to be short the point - unknown cultures related with sadly as much bad sources as early Serbs - most interesting "discovery" personally was line I mentioned from war of Persian ruler Darius I (father of Xerxes) against Scythians and preserved/recorded answer to him of royal Scyth ruler "...find graves of our fathers..." - shock is that there is saying in Serb culture "Serb lands are where our graves are" till recently... so, I simply can't erase possibility of recidives of those Asian people in some "genetic code". However, Serbs were long been slavinised before move here, important to note as one will not find names of Itanic origin in early middle ages... other interesting thing culturally is much "tougher" tone in spoken Slavic in Serbs (and Croats) compared to other Slavic tribes and specific letters... hope it's interesting for cultural researchers and is related to things Bombast and I talked about. To me super intersting, scientifically

on different level - not origin of tribe - of course one could never forget many Jewish roots of many names, fair to say :) although normally our medieval names were not taken from them but other tribes (like Greeks) previously christianized... and finally - also talked in "mike" a lot of some things that smell of Roman genesis myth (i.e. wolf, two brothers of Racia etc etc)

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-02 19:57, Sunday

seen that Italian "Uno" had Coriolanus drama/film i mentioned last night in late hour, couldn't catch it watched it before anyway :p

perfect fit for the name of your thread is this old thought & something I dislike in many European countries (we don't have that practice luckily and use subtitles, except in cartoons) of synchronization as translation of voices in films. It steal and rape significant part of acting, so many kids in your countries are unable to hear and distinguish G. Butler's great acent, most obviously :)

film is nothing special, more like theatre play, but glad that some bigger countries showed it, my city is Rome there so cool :) share some interesting older history things here, if you wish anyone.... (by Bombast's nice invitation)

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-04 14:55, Tuesday

another line or two about (our most used) Wikipedia... was checking this article recently

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Skobalji%C4%87

.....glad there is English page at all, by my opinion person closest to a title of "Serb Leonidas" in time of living - however! - it linked "careless pupil" to some Turkish "Feriz Bey" that wasn't born in time person of same name in article tasted some action in 1454 :) And so on, technicality..... when it comes to redacting and puting lines in due to it's "open and global nature" must add that some suspicious lines in Wiki are not just its fault, in medieval period sources were often bad or biased, unscientific often. One example for the end (i think most of us take it carefully anyway). Imagine someone from...... Scotland lets say.... deciding to make a work about our short-lived empire. Our sources are often bad or dead as state was, Italian or Hungarian not extensive/detailed enough so that person must use a lot of Byzantine (basically Greek very often) sources and works. To stay objective nominally he will compare and correct (for example) diferent but detailed writings of N. Gregoras and J. Cantacuzenos on subject - but problem is still there as they were both Greek and (though probably not hateful and knew our emperor personally) not objective on subject... etc, put it simple to be readable.

to touch back to my yesterday post (this is more proper place for it) - while in political sense and game of the time one can imagine Aragonese-Catalans in (example) Dušan army (i.e. he wasn't fan of Genova and attacked Byzant, talking friendly to Venice and maybe Sicilians and Aragon) to me it's not so likely that he commanded "1000s of Catalans" (even heavy armoured)) in battle of 1330... even more funny those "Catalans" were Italians infact by some, southern Italians even while he was "having ideas" with Venetians i.e. northern Italians :lol however we have source that he recruited some unit of the type in Ragusa and obviously some people from Iberian lands were around generally.... you get the point, hope my medieval posts are interesting and refreshing, just don't take Wikipedia and Byzantine sources as "objective and sure" :) ...i look at it maybe because of all the mess present, will put something eventually but indeed I talk too much, any subject welcome ;

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-05 12:19, Wednesday

...also - very important for greater Mediterranean history - our emperor wasn't fan of Angevines too :) maybe crucial part i forgot to mention. He was involved in skirmishes with Hungary and attacked their Albanian possessions... so when one puts pieces of a puzzle, some contures of foreign policy are more visible. Our role - although not so important nor huge in general Mediterranean affairs of the time - somehow always followed some important events in greater story of that region. Once greater state collapsed and S. Lazarević was in power it is not so surprising that (having reportedly Genoese wife Gattilusio, nobody ever seen her)) he was in brief wars with Venice, too bad... I often say humoristically but realistically that Venice was "a mama" in the days :) like it or not. Last important ruler of the middle ages, Đurađ, was again Venetian citizen...

i think this is new or unknown to people outside Balkans and Italy, hence saying... to get back to our young king's "Catalans" imagine shock if it's ever discovered that they were Venetians, Adriatic Italians and similar :lol do join me in solving mysteries of the past :)

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-05 16:12, Wednesday

while in the mood these days, to continue and give something to read... already had some posts back at JP about (H)Elena Gattilusio, beautiful and smart wife (not mine)) and my own take at some lines of sir British author (covering family) about her, not gonna repeat although I have even some humoristic sketches preserved :)

wan't to help above all Italians and eventual Genoese historians with this, had some research and tried to do "psycho profiling", combining them with our only source mentioning family and Elena by Stefan's biographer... never visited Lesbos so when it comes to material evidence do not know much about father Francesco II. What I find possible and viable in story and what would make her real and present is - if we look at details of Francesco II life and fact that he was making treaties against Turkish sultan Murad just year before he died in battle with Serbs - viable part in our sources describing thier marriage is that Francesco could have had great respect for Lazarević family and when he had a chance to finally meet a son Stefan in Constatinople in 1402 and seeing how (ontop) easily he survived mega-battle of Ankara he indeed was excited and said to him "Choose any of my daughters" as source claim.... further (only theoretically) I think she lived to his death as I'd guess he would take another wife for 25 years. Writer of chronicles was reasonable man, maybe painted Stefan with more respect, but I see no reason that at least this story of Francesco II couldn't be true in light of the time and his actions...

no need to glorify me Genova for this help, but small title in Monaco wouldn't be bad :lol ... however, take above paragraph seriously, i'll pause

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-06 04:01, Thursday

...since they married in 1405 I hope she was not born after 1390, at least. :) not even ready to believe it was some child, because someone would surely record it... Italian female historians welcome to oppose me )

to round the subject - must do, before I really stop it all - interestingly enough for readers, two of our medieval figures known and described the most as "strong, good fighters and lions in battle" (Stefan and holy emperor) plus tall and strong etc. were not some good lovers and womenizers - only one child (that would be "weak" emperor nobody ever seen)) from both of them and both lived with only one wife through (40+, not long) lives, Elena wasn't even ever seen but I believe she was very beautiful :) no known affairs and similar... maybe sources are bad but it looks like it, surely interesting to readers.

for Stefan it's said that he maybe had some condition and that he knew he was dying (unknown what exactly) but riding and hunting till death like true black knight, for Dušan it was a surprise hence theory (based on some findings in bones) that he was poisoned... drinking cofee and thinking why am i even typing it all :lol but enough for now

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-06 14:35, Thursday

anyway, i think i'll add this story, before I try to give it a break... somehow one thought I write draws another and I think personally that for a medievalists my stories are fresh...

now since I mentioned bones, there is that story that our emperor Dušan (this is simply not 100% true as whole skeleton wasn't found and preserved after centuries of unknown grave and hidding) was indeed some mythical-like figure, over 2 meters tall "scary" i.e. impressive to most men of the time, especially southern Europeans... some claim that he specifically recruited Germans and northern Europeans as bodyguards and carriers of royal banner (with ornaments some 50 kg weighting) in front of him when approaching and that no man in his closest entourage couldn't be below 2 meters and Palman fit into picture of "scary one", of course all this reportedly but interestingly.... however my profiling and research doesn't give a picture of brutal and careless man - he spared half-brother who was one of his first fears during clash with father, for example, and did not act authoritarian way in family... generally majority of rulers were tall by descriptions.

hope it's interesting... i'd like to concentrate more on some female stories (but doubt) so welcome :)

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-07 12:49, Friday

i think point is made, but joke & more details - there is that fresco I mentioned from Oliver's Lesnovo church, said to be roughly 3 meters in size and one can say it was "almost real size" :lol ... imagine some uneducated, ordinary Greek serfs, maybe knowing ancient myths and stories, seeing the man and entourage somewhere deep in their land, so "the mighty" probably wasn't as much nickname given from the inside, guess... when I said "greatest emperor" it wasn't far from truth. Probably exceptional figure in our history by size (although complete data is missing on all nobility), for info Stefan (known as "tall") was said to be around 180 cm - armour and eventual additions on both helmets make it all even more "scary" for non-nobles of course... i'm of the opinion that some modern data on heights wasn't just due to improved life conditions and nutrition (as scientist say) but maybe some earlier genetics from antics, just theory... nothing racist there, we may be big but are not so smart :lol

there is a "ambition" of mine, pairing G. Butler and Arnold S. (same size) for the roles, but Arnold (beside age)) is not type of actor for emotional, psychological role i imagine :)

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-18 13:08, Tuesday

by the way for pedantry, grave I mentioned in one of first post here (in Italy) is reportedly from town Treviso, near Venice ; no idea why I mentioned Piacenza and Vicenza at all, wrong clue and ringing in the brain :) .... never visited particular location and town personally, so i only guess it's true.

not some huge expert in medieval history of Italian cities, but what makes story interesting is that Treviso was dominated by Guelphs in time of Milutin rule in Rascia... however they had also divisions among "black and white" ones in right about same time (wonder how Dante fits in whole story and his mentioning of Rascia twice - or more - in "Comedy")), so all taken into consideration maybe that knight wasn't that political at all and not to be presumed he followed some mainstream Guleph ideas at all..... anyway, what is not so surprising is that Treviso is very close to Venice, so people being in Rascian service less unusual - it surely sounds strange from today perspective but back in the days Rascia (Serbia) and Venetian republic signed contracts mentioning word "brotherhood" few times during both our kingdom and despotate and some 250 years of existance... it was possible even due to ethno-racial and religious differences between the two, but only then :lol

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-19 03:47, Wednesday

btw 2 - probably last "important" post on Stefan Milutin - why not adding for those liking details.... there is some present notion among some historians (few and often of some Balkan nationalities) and history lovers that - example - Milutin baptised some catholics and that (in some twisted and non-factional way) is taken as "catholic means Croat" just like "orthodox means Serb" by automatism, i'll just say that it is BS and give one good example of first important ruler of Rascia Stefan Nemanja and founder of the house the gave two emperors :) i.e. one of his sons was orthodox and later first king (Anna's husband) while his older brother (with wife from Lazio region possibly) was a catholic - both Serbs, obviously.... etc. etc. etc. If anyone ever show interest in Serbian medieval history just be cautious, while intentions are not neccessary bad by other authors.

anyway, interesting detail about Milutin, I'm not his fan as I'm huge fan of Dušan ;) - in some way predecessor to our empire by style of reign, while one can blame eventual sexual experiences he was pushed into by not his decissions but by own will, Byzantines sent him child wife even though his wish was other mature Byzantine princess which refused to marry king of Serbs who previously showed ambition to annex Byzant lands and reached Aegean sea with able army etc.... But interesting detail I mentioned is that he was in clash with Pope John i.e. Jacques XXII of Avignon papacy - in popular culture that pope is known by other clashes in church, but mostly by Umberto Eco's book "Name of the rose" and even more (probably) by film with Sean Connery, another Scot :) in leading role only loosely based on historical events and English church figure also in clash with John, I like the book and film.... Milutin was dead by the time of events in book

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-20 13:00, Thursday

since saying, those days and years following death of Nemanja and struggle between Vukan (catholic) and Stefan (orthodox) were maybe crucial and key to whole our history and maybe situation today, theoretically speaking. although, it is most likely that clergy was predominantly orthodox by then already.... for joke imagine today map and relations if both Croats and Serbs were catholic, how to make distinction if you fall out of plane around :lol but there is chance that some disputes date back to times of living in Iran or Babylon ;

also since mentioning Eco's work and connecting some events I now have new joke of Milutin and (especially) Dušan's mysterious death - they were reading too much Greek books sent once by pope John XXII :lol

jokes aside - i take it only seriously in research - here is one link and short text of Latium family of (possible) Vukan's wife, never to be important here due to primogeniture not being respected. In Nemanja decision religion of sons wasn't crucial factor, but his calculation that it's more favourable for the state to have king married in "mighty" Byzant - however son Stefan remarried after to Dandolo wife - their only son become later the king who advanced mining and the rest is (great) history and once empire with heights nobody reached before ). Link to family for researchers (yeah, i still hope to find someone interested here, welcome)):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conti_di_Segni

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-21 11:08, Friday

Italians are - if i didn't tell before :lol - people of culture and great help in many historical eras to us.... since Plinius till today. I always say in some political way, no matter what your political views are and current situation is, you simply mustn't ever be "emotionally negative" to Italians and Russians as people, if you are Serbian. Servius Tullius, middle ages, Venice, 1876, WW1, economic things, Ferrari (Fiat) - you name it... Anna, my favorite queen, I'd build her big 50 meters high monument somewhere :) Never said a word against moving from Venice to barbaric lands and she didn't even move back after death of husband, which was practice often...

checked her English Wiki page for the first time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Dandolo and just for laughs on our fav encyclopedia as always:

"....became Queen of Serbia as the third wife of King Stefan the First-Crowned..." and just few lines later, relating to Stefan ".... Anna was his second wife..."...... also "....Anna lived until 1264...." and few lines later "....It is believed that Anna died in 1258...."

:lol .... doesn't mean that other languages, as Para demonstrated, are any better and less funny - that's by the way one of the reasons why satirical "Uncyclopedia" was once created, but we all can read Wiki with smile too. I think I already made that point, but why not pointing some funny things occasionally when noticing )

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-22 14:22, Saturday

the more I think about it the more I like the idea of huge Anna Dandolo monument, holding something in her hands in Venetian dress when she was young, will have to think about it in details... it would be so attractive and usual, international and not nationalistic, but still truthful to history as she was important in probably raising son who enabled growth and something to remember while ruled by others. However i'm not the one making cultural-monumental decissions here so I'll talk to dodge :) no joke, to me it would be great

must admit I for the first time have read D'Annunzio's poem mentioned in Wiki link i.e. first time in original, in Italian and translating it myself line-by-line ("Ode alla nazione serba" never talked much about here). Strongly recommended to all, it's easy to find around but most would consider it "un-PC" today, considering some his views and (maybe) a bit "racist" to especially Bulgarians as he was disappointed with Bulgarian declaration of war - but read it nonetheless as document. Incredible, really impressive that man knew so much about our medieval history AND about geography of Serbia of his time, including details as names of hills and town-districts in Belgrade. Stylistically I also like it... Historically I minorly dislike him mentioning "prince Marco" (son of Vukašin I mentioned before) as he was more epic than historical figure of any importance, but anyway man is Italian and never was in Serbia...

great respect for work and (longish) poem, however as many Italian nationalist he probably altered from writing such touching and detailed poem to being (maybe) anti-Serb in later years :lol once Serb army and others came to northern Dalmatian coast (personally, it was bad idea it wasn't our land - unlike some other parts of Adriatic - even under Dušan D'Annunzio mentioned few times. Do not hate him, though.... other "philosophical thing" where I disagree with Gabriele D'Annunzio is his belief that "evil Prussian" was to blame for pushing Austria into war and crimes - on the contrary "Prussian" generals (like Mackensen) were more respectful and non-criminal to us.... I talk too much - read poem as document if you wish, i recommend, it's also interesting for medieval history as mean to see how much the man was educated and knew about our details of the era :yes

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-23 23:02, Sunday

...a bit more on Germany in some sensibilities and fractions inside that tribes-nation-state-empire, surely important and interesting one, I would never ignore and marginalise from my position of power :lol Again through prism of medieval politics and our relations through one example...

"Imperial Germany" (lets just compare it to Prussia for merely philosophical and empirical reasons) vs "provintial, fragmented but more hard-core catholic - in the days - and deeply religious one" (again just for stylistical figure and same philosophical aims). Or once, as smart Italians divided it roughly speaking in some days long gone - Ghibelline and Gualph one... so where do we fit - both Henry (teh Lion) of Guelph and "Ghibelline" emperor Barbarossa passed through Rascia - last time it's Serbia I use nice Italian word often for practical reasons to make distinction to Montenegro, also "land of Serbs" in era I respect their statehood but don't care about politisations of history - of time in not so distant time period. First was involved in (minor) conflict here and his chronicle writers had no nice words for Serbs, less than 20 years later Barbarossa passed through - meeting Serb ruler Nemanja friendly, even royal marriages were discussed for later.... Of course Nemanja hoped for some "operation Barbarossa" :lol by German emperor against Byzant maybe ;) while German emperor showed unusual respect for such small and uncrowned (and non catholic in big part) state and tribe...

very interesting example and philosophically true to some points I try to make and to Mackensen or Kleist vs Austrian general/officer thing... consider it, think about it if you wish it is all philosophical and of course how I sense it, talking about our relations with Germans through eras, as said before 1914 and some crimes relations were never bad... also, believing that smaller countries are some "sheeps" being pushed and moved like pawns around is (to me) not very truthful way to describe events. I often take "philosophical approach" to history and like "Italian school of thought" on it very much. Everybody welcom to share medieval details here, but one can make paralels and interesting views to other eras as well, as I did because D'Annunzio triggered thinking more deeply about all...

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-24 20:59, Monday

two more things and details with Germans and us in middle ages, simply to end this block - first, super famous knight Palman Bracht (last name more present in England for example than Austria though he was born around Graz). Some independent reasearch and possible "hidden fact" is that he might have joined Teutonic order with some family members (they had practice of employing mercenaries) in Venice (teutonic center, our medieval "sister") prior to entering service of Dušan who elevated him to capitain of foreign Imperial guard, untypically he stayed loyal for 25 years and greatest Nemanjić death. Considering order's activity of the time in Baltic region, again interesting link with northern German lands... second is good relations of Stefan Lazarević post 1403 with Sigismund of Luxemburg, later German emperor. Some say it's (by legend) due to Stefan intentionally saving his life and entourage in battle in 1396 but I think - more truthfully to history - that it might be same link and some forgotten tie or understanding/diplomatical respect with imperial German behaviour in old days, division was over by then and one surely can't consider Sigismund "Ghibelline style" emperor but in the sime time one can, if you get idea... all is there to consider.

with this I'd finish about Germans, this block is interesting and there are hidden (or simply) forgotten facts there, interesting merely as Serbia was not only "Slavic" (speaking) but also non-catholic YET it mantained good personal relations with (uncofirmed but possible,Palman) catholic order members or "Ghibelinish" rulers in times, so I regard it it interesting to every reader and medieval history lover, nothing non-factual there & you! always welcome to say something to it all... )

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-25 18:06, Tuesday

...i didn't know but it turns out that arhaeological site where Dušan church and grave once were (near town Prizren) was protected by German NATO forces in the first decade of XXI century. Guess you can't escape your fate and symbolism of "loyal guardians" :lol ......however his bones were found in 1927 and moved to Belgrade since then, luckily for history lovers but uncomplete skeleton and thrown around under mud.

to add - guess most had enough of him already, but it's of special interest to me as time and figure - that church itself was unique royal mausoleum of type in our whole medieval history, having rich ornaments but also floor mosaics untypical for "Rascian style" and grave itself was built by western model and Venetian influences, having sculpture of ruler on top of marble sarcophagus and one on western side of tomb. Some other descriptions of diamonds shining through night belong more to legend, but not imposible that valuable ornaments were present, considering our proverbial wealth...... too bad - unlike some other less unique mausoleums in whole region - this church didn't make it through time and was systematically ruined by local Ottoman authorities and administrators, obviously Dušan was "too powerful symbol" for rebellious Serbs in their eyes, but today it would be unique turistic site benefiting all nearby residents... enough about man for now.

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-26 13:32, Wednesday

today small update on names I mentioned and specifically singled out previously (i.e. Bran, Bodin, Baldovin) - well, we all know famous place Bran in today Romania, but same country also has traces of names in its geography like river Baldovin.... just to mention for consideration (Bodin I did not hear about in Romania) but it doesn't exclude previous origin as all 3 are present in Celtic nations as well.

so why I am so interested to all this early things and influences, because - staying in line with "De administrando Imperio" and (nobody says it is true as it explains events separated by few centuries in time of making) its description of Serbs as small tribe arriving almost by invitation of Roman/Byzantine emperor - I am very curious and interested in how was it possible to, "clinched" between tribes living around for long period and having distinctive culture (for example Romanics, Latins-Italians and all others), be able to enlarge, consolidate and strengthen and make (even short lived) empire. To me it indicates presence of organised tribal structure and military hierarchy for long time, but I also mentioned ancient sources so... Scyths rule :lol Seriously I've read even foreign works on the subject (glad for your time, miladies) and some opinions how old Serbs "were inclusive to other tribes and put them under own dominance peacefully" however it might be possible that aggression and strict "tribal elitism" was more likely answer :) maybe i'll come back more to this subject sometimes, but what can we all say in lack of evidence and sources.... opinions welcome as always.

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-26 22:18, Wednesday

...Bran latinised as Branus - there is cute story from IX c about him and brother giving 2 slaves (not Slavs!), 2 falcons, 2 dogs and some furs to Bulgarian emperor Boris after Serbs crushed him in battle :lol of the time - as well be variation of name Brenus i.e. Bren i.e. Celtic leader and invader of Balkans (which btw wasn't called like that for long time) who might have been respected among some isolated or mixed Celtic elements or mountain people nonetheless. Which doesn't make person having some name person of that origin btw, just may be interesting for Celtic studies as (only possible) survived influence in region etc.

scientist, researchers and all interested should just be open minded and not entrenched along tribal or ethno lines, narrowed in research of some phenomenons/names/customs just inside some group of people/race/ethnogroup. It's important and why I say, it gave me some great freedom in some investigations. Of course it must be possible i.e. Celtic names among Serbs for example - yes, but only because they both lived in region. Serbs as Scytho-Sarmats and not only Slovens - yes, but only because Plinius mentioned it etc. etc. Do not write fantasy without any connection, must be possible.... so, scientists and to get back to names who would say that Oliver was a Greek if I never said so, but then again who can 100% confirm that he was just because Serbs said he was "Grčin" i.e. Greek 700 years ago :lol "he knew language" some say, so what - our emperor used Greek and vulgar Latin sending letters to Italy, but it doesn't make him neither of two...... you get idea, old history is great investigation and fun.

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-27 14:31, Thursday

and of course - it goes by itself without saying - elites and esp. rulers were of mixed origin, in our case visible in behaviour of Milutin and Dušan who both tried to mention own "Romean(Byzantine)" partial origin in right to Byzantine territories and (in grand ambition of second) imperial crown... since mentioning, interestingly - to find their "Romean origin" one would have to go long way back in time predating Nemanja (his wife is not certain some say maybe Greek, some domestic, even Frankish and all...) as only some previous tribal leaders had more certain Byzantine wives. It is possible for example but unconfirmed that Dušan's grandmother was Greek, but most likely it was just Serb women from Milutin first marriage, his mother was Bulgarian.... great grandmother "French"-Hungarian, before that Italian (Dandola) and that's it. It seems that they both missed Byzantine grand mothers for quite some time :lol but doesn't matter Dušan was great regardless....

I had enough sad stories, one of them being about "injustice" to Vukan and primogeniture not respected, but isnpired by previous paragraph today one with "happy ending" and "poetic justice"..... if we only by chance and possibilty, indeed accept that his wife was from Conti di Segni from Latium and his kids were their kids then Stefan Lazarević was related to the family and that great historic region near Rome - because his mother, famous Lazar wife, is from Vukan family line and his great-grand (x4-5 generations) daughter. It would make Đurađ Branković their relative too, so last two important rulers had "Latium roots" :) great story, however if only could be true and confirmed that wife was indeed Conti ) ... i like Roman history and Italy so that's why humoristicaly say it's "poetic justice" but foggy and mysterious indeed ;) hope my stories are appreciated and liked...

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-28 16:24, Friday

well, I often check Wikipedia after I write some things and - surprisingly - by it Dečanski had at least 3 mothers :lol in separate articles. Now even I am confused, excuse me but I believe that Dušan's grandma was indeed from Milutin first marriage.... it seems that only unfortunate Simonis (child-queen) is not suspected... she left Serbia in 27-28 years of age, btw but lived long enough to see Dušan comming near Constantinople :p

look - i mean nor I nor anyone knows for sure and I'm not here to defend eventual child abuser - but since mentioning one must consider that her eventual abuse by Milutin is I believe only from Byzantine sources, which maybe tried to picture him in negative and barbarious light.... i feel for her, wouldn't mind medium monument somewhere although she is of no other importance (

there is another separate detail from Milutin life - reported and alleged "blindening" of son Dečanski after said rebelled against him - but some American and British historians (and me too by investigation) say and theorise that he was never "blinded" nor brutalized just expelled to Byzant by Milutin. Important fact, often present as legend of Dečanski life and his trick to impress nobility with story - he was very able in battles and command so he won the civil war with at least 3 battling sides.... some say he also executed half-brother in brutal and rarely recorded way, maybe he was "the brutal one" ;) .... Dušan put him to an end, anyway for sure :) although I have doubts that he ordered his death, again claim from source written much later and condemning Dušan (110% non-brutal man, imo and that's where I stand firmly unlike with previous stories of his father and grandfather....)

.... somehow I'm glad - from pure historic perspective and fun - that events went on Dečanski side during those days of civil war, if they did not there is great chance that empire would never be declared and 2.15 meters emperor would never be much known, but that's subjective.

digged another - for end, yeah I lied before about that - relatively fresh detail about Milutin probably from papal archives or something, but he had correspondence with 2 popes predating pope John XXI (whome he clashed with) offering Serbia converting back to Rome if they support him and son explicitely and openly during events, but Angevines consolidated during mentioned pope from film and books and that alliance was out of question.... if true it just shows how everything was relative and compicated, though I doubt Milutin was deeply serious about intent as that would ruin his position and support in orthodox clergy.... as always after important posts, my invitation to look at some older events stays open here )

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-28 22:44, Friday

so great.... as I said, it's a puzzle so elemnet by element and it fits in my head. Second pope predating John XXII was Italian - from Treviso! I just checked it and article i've read few years ago about Milutin knight from Treviso (without mentioning that pope, just bishop maybe realted to him) suits so perfectly into story and one would say is confirmed if you dig enough and combine stories... so man from Treviso was so "proud" to mention his service to Milutin as he had friendly correspondence with Trevisian pope not because Venice line as i wrongly said, indeed. Pope from Treviso reigned short, poisoning was supected... am I only to suspect the actions of future French popes there and here in our dinasty :lol ... and worsening relations since French taken the throne from Italian pals back then :)

small step for medieval history and global events but it seems that "grave from Treviso thing" is solved in elegant way. Thanks to Italians for discovery :yes had to share this as I'm very satisfied with result of this investigation, though there is not some importance to you i'd guess )

not gonna post constantly so, last time - lets talk about it, welcome ))

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-29 10:31, Saturday

....btw, some might see my posts, also those from Csaba's "Napoleon thread" (where I posted Vesuvius eruption animation)) as some sort of "anti-French" sentiment...

nothing like that if you are French welcome to talk, on the contrary French people left some valuable sources for our middle ages, like (also mentioned) de la Broquiere stating "Serbia is super-rich, richest in all Europe" :) and he wasn't only French around, they are also mentioned as mercenaries making us great then.... It migh be true that Stefan L. killed more French than Mongols at some point in life :lol but that was all forced on him. Nothing emotional, but it's true that Avignon papacy and French activity on Balkans in first half of XIV century pushed some events and our policies to great extent, same apropos Napoleon wanting us "impaled" and all, but nothing "anti" there. So, if French, welcome very much to talks :) it's just that we had more ties with Italy, naturally

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-08-31 13:57, Monday

... digging through some German texts on mining and some parallels through ages - not knowing that tongue nor details of sentence structure so using only auto-translator - found some interesting description of von Herder, some Saxon geologist and pal of Goethe btw, wearing in last years of life "sabre/sword with 108 diamonds, gift from Miloš Obrenović of Serbia in 1835" although it's not clear from German text was the saber or uniform gift from him, pure logic says it was a sword... uneducated and hardly literate but rich elites are not some modern phenomenon then, we have tradition of at least 200 years :lol .... that's why I sometimes give more respect to medieval elites and rulers (though autocratic and absolutistic) as they were mostly the most educate persons of their times, patrons of art and architecture, but also ready to die in battle if need be.... imagine Miloš being able to write Serb, Greek, Latin at 20 years of age as Dušan was able :)

wanted to add to Stefan L. details of life and somehow to western mind not understandable behavior and seemingly huge loyalty to Turkish sultan Bayezid/Bajazit, although he personaly wasn't fan of Turks demonstrated in later life and by entering Sigismund Luxemburg's order (even supplying him with troops in various actions, like possibly against Husites).... well, the story is that Stefan was doing all that in fear/security for youngest sister (Olivera) whome he supposedly liked very much, which was for some 10+ years in Bayezid's harem (sent by mother not by Turkish request in this case)... So actions at Ankara in 1402 - where he break through Mongol lines several times to reach sultan camp - could be interpretated in that way, so he finally was able to get that sister out of Mongol captivity from Timur later, after said sultan died in captivity.

second level - in both his and later Đurađ Branković's actions - is belief in big part that being cooperative or servile to Turks-Osmans would save Serbia from destruction and annexation, time and events proved that belief and policy was wrong one, but one can't blame them for hoping... finally from me on this, it is funny that Đurađ is often seen as "more cooperative, even traitor" among some myth builders and other Balkan nations - while in fact he gave more fight and opposition to Turkish advances vie own army or loyal "dukes"... but history and myth is never fair ; but man deserved more respect for huge sacrifices and fight in the days

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Re: Translations

Post by Ale » 2020-09-10 14:30, Thursday

to recapitulate some things in very few sentence - looking at older history is very well worth, with more critical and open minded approach liberated of some prejudicial and ethno-group-religious centric dogmas... it's important it to be apolitical also as for good example in that small and in historical way not so important example of Sarmatian-Scythian tribes today Serbs and Croats most probably derivate names from, which even if 100% proven and accepted changes nothing - nor tribe equals nation, nor it is about linguistic or ethno-genesis which is obviously Slavic in later centuries. But i don't see any mental barrier such things - recorded in various ancient sources - not to be mentioned and considered as trivia and most likely source of tribe name origin.... and that's just one example of many controversial, basically without any reason. There are many controversies in even such famous states and tribes like Latins and Roman state, starting with fate of Alba Longa :lol and I don't see why anything in any research should have any political or tribal weight...

however my main interest is medieval, i believe i gave some interesting points which are not linguistical at all and more in line of how things developed, balanced and how tribe reached political climax before "death"... but - for likely end for now and some time, i'll try ; - more to the spirit of thread name and again about names. So it's name Nemanja now for consideration. I think that researchers again make ethno-centric mistake about looking at it's origin as exclusively Slavic or Serb per se. Like today, like then I don't see any problem that names may be of foreign origin, as talked in own theories about Celtic influences. Simply said - if today we have names like Aleksandar or Filip (both unpopular in medieval times, but popular later) or you-name-it which are of foreign origin, I don't see any reason not to believe that even 1000 years ago situation wasn't same and members of tribal elite named kids in such way, especially why not so in region with such big mixing, previous empires and non-isolated one. So Nemanja - why would one be limited in search of origin in Serb origin for example. Especially as some theories give logically (to me) faulty solutions for boy baby like "no possession" or "stubborn" (maybe but still not grand enough) or "demon/monster" etc. At the same time there are Jewish, Middleastern or even Germanic roots for name that make royal baby boy more logically correct as "treasurer", "bloodline" or "newcomer" without changing Nemanja's ethnicity nor origin ;) Distortions and variants were very well common in the days.... it's interesting that Nemanja himself also used very interesting pattern and list for own baby names i.e. Vukan (wolf base was common among Serbs as is today) Stefan (foreign & non-Slavic) and Rastko, Jefimija etc.... it doesn't hurt to consider, like examples of Bran, "Baldwin", Oliver etc, etc and not impossible nor heretic at all, of course I apologize to strict science and "by the book" rigidity but just saying becase tribes were nor vacuumed boxes then nor religion and ethno-group were only source of naming patterns.... naturally i'll wait with conclusions until Italians dig something :) it's all fun and chance, spicing history a bit - i go but anybody always welcome with some interesting story.

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