swords and sandals/historical notes

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Re: swords and sandals/historical notes

Post by Ale » 2024-01-03 14:20, Wednesday

modern times to finish subject - first Pompeo Venturi circa 1732:
Inoltre i Re perversi di questi due notissimi regni. (Rascia) Parte della Schiavonia, il di cui Re a quel tempo falsava i ducati Veneziani.
says, on 139-141 lines that "those are two pervert kings of that 2 noted/known kingdoms" :) (Portugal & Norway) while our is "in Sciavonia, whose kingdom in times forged Venetian ducats"... as seen now, in modern times, we are less known geographically than others, change from medieval times ;


next i choose is Baldassare Lombardi circa 1791-92:
Quel di Rascia, Che ec. Rascia parte della Schiavonia, o Dalmazia. Il suo Re a' tempi di Dante falsificò i Ducati Veneziani. Volpi.
he first "determines" that Portugal king in sense is Diniz Agricola, while unable to determine Norway king talked about... why like, as Baldassare says "Rascia is seen where (not to repeat), forged Venetian ducats" and finishes line with one word sentence of own, not Dante :) - "Fox." or foxes, not necessarily in some angry way, as it is also last name in Italy ; cute addition by him, while substance of Miluten's wrongdoing is repeatedly not factual ;


Niccolo Tommaseo circa 1837 edited in 1865:
Portogallo: Dionisio l'Agricola, avaro e mercante: regnò dal 1279 al 1325. Norvegia: Anon.: «Sì come le sue isole sono all'ultimo estremo della terra, così la sua vita è in istremo di razionabilitade e di civilitade». Rascia: Parte di Schiavonia. Questi falsificò i ducati veneti. Il Giambullari (I) nomina Misia, Tracia, Rascia, Servia, Romania. Rascia, il Vico. V. Caraffa, IV, 2. Bolland. 1, 983, an. 1319: Rex Rasciae et Diocleae, Albaniae, Bulgariae, et totius maritimae de gulfo Adriano a mari usque ad flumen Danubii magni. Male: a suo danno. Inf. IX, 54: Mal non vengiammo in Teseo l'assalto. Ott.: «Avendo uno figliuolo, e d'esso tre nipoti, per paura che non gli togliessero il regno, li mandò in Costantinopoli allo imperatore suo cognato; e scrissegli, sì come si dice, ch'egli cercavano sua morte, e che gli tenesse in prigione. E così fece tanto, che, per orribilitade del carcere, il padre de' tre perdè quasi la veduta; li due il servivano, ed il terzo fu rimandato allo avolo. Finalmente il padre uccise l'uno de' due suoi figliuoli, e con l'altro si fuggì di carcere... e prese il padre, di cui l'autore parla, e fecelo morire in prigione. Poi poco resse il regno; chè da' suoi figliuoli ricevette il cambio». Aggiustò: Bello l'aggiustare per falsificare: e non pochi aggiustamenti si fanno per falso. Doppiamente proprio in quanto rammenta il peso giusto. Altri legge male ha visto, per suo danno se ne invaghì, e lo falsò. Lo zecchino veneziano era sino a' dì nostri pregiato in Oriente; e ne' canti del popolo toscano è imagine proverbiale di valore sincero.
long, backed by some sources, tries to explain what was med Rascia, giving many similar regions and titles our kings had at peak etc. Then it repeats "Ottimo commento" i gave above and most interesting (besides mentioning silver dinar weight etc) is how commentator gives view why would it (in some interpretation) touch Dante so much - it says that Venetian money was "known in medieval pop songs of Tusacany as great/true value". so by him why quasi imitation of Miluten forced Dante to mention him, as he sees... valuable as opinion why Dante seen "offense" in it, if there wasn't sarcasm or joke by him as said


next i take, Raffaello Andreoli circa 1856:
Quel di Rascia, Che mal ec., il re di Rascia, il quale mal si servì del conio di Venezia, contraffacendone i ducati. Dicono, questo re essere un tale Uroscio, per cui commando fu goffamente imitata quella molto pregiata moneta veneziana. Alcuni codici: Che male ha visto il conio ec. – Rascia. Parte allora della Schiavonia, il cui nome oggi è rimasto solo ad una sorta di panno.
first in modern times put some name as Uroscio for Miluten, repeats imitation claim for coins and, interstingly, gives line where is Rascia today and says "that its name remains today only in name of some clothing (textile/textile ornament)" ...which was indeed once case, some Rascian clothing detail or textile known in Italy after state disappeared - but back in medieval times Italians often went to Rascia to buy some clothes :)


Luigi Bennassuti circa 1864-68:
E quel di Portogallo. Dionisio l' Agricola. Anche questi era già re nel 1300: Dante parla dei soli re viventi a quest'epoca. – Di Norvegia. Di questo re s' ignora il nome. Ma i tre nominati in questa terzina pare che avessero un peccato comune a tutti, l'avarizia, e per essa l' ingiustizia e la frode. E quel di Rascia. Il re di Schiavonia, di cui s'ignora il nome, e che, secondo il poeta, imitò, falsificandolo, il ducato veneto, certo per far guadagno. Ma dice che l' aggiustò male, o perchè la sua frode fu conosciuta e s'infamò, o perchè gli fosse fatto costar cara la sua frode dagli stessi Veneziani.
Luigi theorise that all 3 kings in "terzina" (3 verses) share something in common "some greed/bad deed, injustice or fraud"... as for Miluten, same thing as many and "infamous for bad adjustment or for fraud relating Venetians and their interests"


says Brunone Bianchi circa 1868:
Rascia, è Ragusi col suo territorio, che è parte della Schiavonia; e forse vuolsi indicare tutta la Serbia. Che mal aggiustò il conio, ec.: male adattò alla sua composizione metallica il conio di Vinegia, ch'è quanto dire, non fece giusta, falsò la moneta di Venezia. E il Comento attribuito a Iacopo della Lana spiega: “Che non fea giusta la sua moneta che appare veneziana.” In somma, qui si rimprovera al re di Rascia, che dicono essere stato un tale Uroscio, d'aver voluto fare una moneta simile a quella di Venezia, per essere a quel tempo molto in pregio, ma goffamente imitandola e alterandone la bontà del metallo. Questa lez. mal aggiustò, per le ragioni del valentissimo Gherardini, ho preferita all'altra, pur da molti sostenuta, mal ha visto; la quale forse presa in tono beffardo accenna egualmente a un'infelice contraffazione, ma riesce più oscura; e riuscirebbe anche più misera e fredda, a parer mio, se quell'avverbio male si volesse con alcuni spiegare, per sua sventura, con suo danno. In un Cod. Laurenz. ho letto: mal avvisò 'l conio.
mixes Rascia with Ragusa but says that it maybe meant "whole Serbia" in Dante time... regarding other longer sentences, he discusses possible meaning of Dante's words as i talked few times "ha visto, aggiusto, adds avviso etc etc" and properly states that question was of metal percentage in coins, things that even famous Roman emperors did with "dinars", he even mentiones possibility of humor, sarcasm or mocking... Miluten is named as "Uroscio" again.


huge one i "sadly" must include as important by G.A. Scartazzini circa 1872-82 edited circa 1900:
Rascia: parte della Servia che a' tempi di Dante comprendeva una parte della Dalmazia. Cfr. Ferrari Cupilli, Sul regno di Rascia, e sui grossi o matapani d'argento alterati, nei Saggi di critica storica e letteraria di Angelo Nani, Zara 1875, p. 96 e seg. Dionisi, Aned. VIII, c. 16 e 17. I re di Rascia dominavano la Bosnia e quella parte settentrionale della Servia dove scorre il fiume Rasca che aveva dato il nome al loro reame. Urosio I, detto il Milutino, re di Rascia che regnò sino al 1307, falsificò la moneta veneziana detta Matapane, alterandone la bontà del metallo. Alcuni dicono che Quel di Rascia dev'essere Stefano. Ma e Bernardo Nani, nell'operetta De duobus Imperatorum Rasciae nummis, e lo Zanetti, De nummis regum Mysiae seu Rasciae, e V. Lazari nel suo libro sulle monete dei possedimenti veneziani, mostrarono che i grossi di Stefano re di Rascia non presentavano alcuna differenza con quelli di Enrico Dandolo e di Pietro Ziani, essendo improntati col suo nome bensì, ma eguali nel peso, nella forma, nella bontà del metallo, nel disegno e nei caratteri ai grossi veneziani. La data poi della legge presa nel Maggior Consilio di Venezia il dì 3 di Marzo 1282, ripetuta dappoi nel 3 di maggio 1306, toglie ogni dubbio che Dante si riferisse a Urosio I, a cui anzi nel 1287 aveva la Repubblica Veneta spedito per tale motivo un suo ambasciatore, occasione grossorum contrafactorum (cfr. Dante e il suo secolo, p. 802 e seg.). Ecco il decreto, ch'è il più bel commento ai versi di Dante (Libro d'oro nel quale si contengono le parti statutarie del maggior Consiglio, P. I, p. 218, all'archivio dei Frari):

Die III marti, MCCLXXXII in M. C. Capta fuit pars quod adduntur in capitulari Cammerariorum communis et aliorum offitialium, qui recipiunt pecuniam pro Comuni, quod teneantur diligenter inquirere denarios Regis Rassiae contrafactos nostris Venetis grossis si ad eorum manus pervenerint, et si pervenerint teneantur eos incidere, et ponantur omnes Capsores, et omnes illi, qui tenent stationem in Rivoalto, et eorum pueri a XII annis supra ad sacramentum, quod inquirant diligenter bona fide praedictos denarios et si pervenerint ad eorum manus teneantur eos incidere etc.

Da questo documento risulta che il Re di Rascia falsificò i grossi, non i ducati di Venezia, come asseriscono molti commentatori. Inoltre, nell'archivio di Bologna si conserva il Processo che nel 1305 si fece contro i Cambiatori, prestatori ed altri che introdussero la moneta di Rascia in Bologna, e non si parla di ducati ma soltanto di grossi. Questi scapitavano due o tre denari da quelli della Zecca di Venezia, ma essendo stati banditi quasi per tutta Italia, i banchieri Bolognesi li compravano per vilissimo prezzo, cioè per sessanta lire di grossi bolognesi ottenevano lire cento di grossi veneti rasciensi. Folchinus testis dixit quod publica vox et fama est, quod supradicti campsores et mercatores portaverunt, et portare fecerunt extra Bononiam duas bottesellas plenas de bononinis grossis dicendo quod erat blaca, et de ipsis habuerunt de sexaginta librarum, centum librarum rasciensium, expendendo dictos rasciensos pro bonis venetis per Civit. Bonon. Altri testimoni dissero essere pubblica voce e fama che i banchieri Bolognesi ne introducessero per cento migliaia di lire cambiando questa moneta rasciense o con fiorini d'oro, o con grossi bolognini. I principali banchieri incolpati di questo rovinoso commercio furono Melino Lutero, Vanne Nuvoloni, Paolo de' Poeti, Marsuppino di Pistoia e Giovanni Milanesi, qui insomenzaverunt praedictam Civitatem quod fuit magnum peccatum. Cfr. Mazzoni Toselli, Voci e Passi di D., p. 131 e seg. Con ciò è tolto ogni dubbio sul personaggio e sul fatto a cui allude Dante. L'Ott.: «Di costui e de' suoi si puote dire peggio che l'autore non scrive. Questi, avendo uno figliuolo, e d'esso tre nipoti, per paura che non gli togliessero il regno, li mandò in Costantinopoli allo imperadore suo cognato; e scrissegli, sì come si dice, ch'egli cercavano sua morte, e che li tenesse in pregione. E così fece, tanto che per orribilitade del carcere il padre de' tre perdè quasi la veduta; li due il servivano, e il terzo fu rimandato allo avolo; finalmente il padre uccise l'uno de' due suoi figliuoli, e con l'altro si fuggì di carcere e tornò in Rascia, e prese il padre, di cui l'Autore parla, e fecelo morire in prigione. Poi e' poco resse il regno; chè da' suoi figliuoli ricoverò il cambio.» Uno dei più recenti commentatori poi (Bennas.) si contenta di chiosare: «Il re di Schiavonia, di cui s'ignora il nome (!), e che, secondo il poeta (!), imitò, falsificandolo, il ducato (!) veneto, certo per far guardagno.»

Mal ha visto: lezione assai disputata e discussa. Cfr. Gherardini, Voci e Maniere di dire Italiane, vol. II, p. 843 e seg. (vedi pure vol. I, p. 848). Parenti, Annotazioni al Diz. di Bol., fasc. II, p. 131 e seg. De Batines, Bibl. Dant., vol. I, p. 367 e seg. Quattro Fior. II, p. 272 e seg. Fanfani nel Borghini I, 696 e seg., 733 e seg. Veratti nello stesso periodico, I, 729 e seg. II, 116 e seg. Ferrazzi, Man. Dant. IV, 424 e seg. Se vogliamo prestar fede al Sicca, ai Quattro Fior., al Witte, al Palermo, ai Monaci Cassinesi ecc. hanno Male ha visto i codd. S. Cr., Berl., Caet., Cass., Fram. Pal. i migliori codd. Trivulz. 7 codd. Puccian., tutti i Riccard., 5 Marc., il Flor., l'Antald., i 4 Patav., ecc. Stando al Fantoni il Vat. ha Che male advistò. Quindi la questione sarebbe bell'e decisa coll'autorità dei codd. Ma il fatto è, che il Vat. legge che male aduisto e gli altri quasti tutti che male auisto (non amsto come riferisce il Mussafia che hanno il Vien. e lo Stocc.). Or quell'auisto s'ha da leggere auisto (– ha visto), oppure aiusto (– aiustò per aggiustò)? Questa è la questione, e quì i codd. nulla decidono. Chè se alcuni hanno veramente avisto (invece di auisto), quelli che hanno aduisto, come l'autorevolissimo Vat., stanno per la lezione aiustò), dovendosi apparentemente leggere adiustò. Veniamo alle edizioni. Hanno Ha visto: Folig., Jesi, Mant., Nap., Cremon. del 1491, Ed. Pad., Viv., Sicca, Quattro Fior., Fosc., Witte, ecc. Hanno Aggiustò (o adiustò): Nidob., Ald., Burgofr., Giol., Rovil., Sessa, Crusc., Comin., Dion., De Rom., Pezzana, Mauro Ferr., Fanf., Giul., ecc. Tra' commentatori hanno la prima lezione: Ott., Benv. Ramb., Buti, Febrer, Ces., Ed. Pad., Wagn., Greg., Triss., Cam., Blanc, ecc. Hanno la seconda: Lan., An. Fior., Land., Vell., Dan., Dol., Vol., Vent., Lomb., Port., Pogg., Biag., Costa (aggiusta), Borg., Tom., Br. B., Frat. (aggiusta), Giober., Andr., Bennas., Franc., ecc. Colle autorità non si può dunque decidere nulla. Udiamo le ragioni. Osserveremo prima che, leggendo Male ha visto s'ha da intendere: mal per lui, come spiega il Buti; leggendo Male aggiustò, s'intende che non vi mise la giusta quantità di lega, ma una quantità maggiore, e però falsificò la moneta. Il Fanf. dice che aggiustare è termine di zecca, e vale acconciare il metallo a quella data lega e peso che si richiede dalla moneta che si vuol coniare, e chi ha tale ufficio si chiama Aggiustatore. Urosio che volle coniar le monete simili alle veneziane, fu falsificatore e peccò, perchè, nè per la lega nè per il peso, non le aggiustò secondo che facevasi nella zecca di Venezia; ma le aggiustò male, cioè con peggior lega e peso minore. – Con ciò è detto come si deve intendere male aggiustò, ma non è menomamente provato che male aggiustò sia la vera lezione. Secondo il Veratti l'aggiustò avrebbe gran forza se Dante avesse parlato di moneta, dicendo, per exempio, aggiustò i grossi di Vinegia; ma invece egli parla del conio. Ora che ha a fare coll'impronta del conio l'aggiustamento della lega? E perchè avrebbe Dante trasportato al conio un termine tecnico appropriato alla lega? Urosio coniò moneta di forma simile alla veneta, ma non contraffacendo il conio di Venezia, sibbene ponendo la propria figura e il proprio nome in luogo della figura e del nome del Doge, e ponendo S. Stefano in vece di S. Marco. Anche il Parenti (l. c.) combattè per la lezione ha visto; mentre Gherardini (l. c.) e Nannucci (Anal. crit., p. 40) difesero l'altra. Il Ces. osserva molto giudiziosamente: «Chi legge aggiustò, e chi crede legger meglio ha visto, spiegando quel mal per male a suo uopo. Certo i più e' miglior codici con quel di Mantova hanno ha visto (doveva dire auisto). Nondimeno il senso torna a un medesimo, di questo falsificatore de' ducati (doveva dir grossi) Veneziani.»
well, this is very serious for one comment :) and almost book by signor...who can deal with Italian and ocassional Latin in huge paras ; i of course will not translate... it really has it all in a way i talked very shortly from Venice to Bologna examples, only names Miluten wrongly as Uroscio I on start and that he reigned till 1307 etc. Except that great one, discusses many things, claims that Miluten's dinar was same as that of Enrico Dandolo and Pietro Ziani (doge that made move to marry Anna and Stefan etc) in quality of metal and size etc. that Miluten did not counterfeit grosso in way some understood etc. Really many things there but nothing funny, thought not to post this but is maybe most important "comment" of all in Italian lands ; ....btw, many XIX c comments are really academic and huge on just few short lines and i will not post them - generally Italians discuss and doubt meaning of words, often reffering to why "aggiusto" was accepted by many commentators, interesting but not for here... often commentators wrongly say that Rascia is named by river, forgetting that Roman fort (already forgotten ruin by then) of Ras actally gave name to state, btw


so let's jump to XX c for finale - Francesco Torraca (Italian, 1905)
Quel di Portogallo; Dionisio Agricola (1275-1325). – E quel di Norvegia: Hakon V (1299-1319). Lì si conosceranno: altro non aggiunge l'aquila, probabilmente perchè di essi Dante sapeva poco. – E quel di Rascia ecc. Il regno di Rascia, detto così dalla capitale, ora Novi-Bazar, era formato di parti della Servia, della Bosnia, della Croazia e della Dalmazia. Vi regnava nel 1300 Stefano Urosio II Milutino, il quale fece contraffare i grossi o ducati di Venezia. Con decreti del 1282 e del 1306, il governo veneziano tentò impedire la diffusione della moneta contraffatta: nel 1305 furono processati a Bologna alcuni, che la spacciavano. – Mal: cfr. Inf., IX, 54.
first one after 600 years ) names properly Miluten as SU II Milutino, bingo ; nothing else important, mentiones Venetian laws aimed at "breaking Miluten imitations" etc. But this is when full name in Italy surfaced in all commentaies on "Paradiso".

despite this now knowledge, further comments (but few) in XX c Italy sometimes repeat that it were "ducats or gold etc" but generally nothing new there so with this i finish this great subject - glad that Dante "threw bone" with two verses, unclear till today and that verses were even part of studies of medieval and modern Italian "ha visto" ; ... I put theory - as Dante was complicated man not liking anyone really form Popes to Doges (he maybe liked some things but seen many bad things in Venice which was elitist etc) - that he hidden some really funny line there and that he maybe put Norvegia in first verse for no toher political reason than pure rhyme with Vinegia :) (Venice) and puzzled many about Hakkon while it was just nice name for rhyme :) etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqnABNRHMYM&t=39s

some music for last 2 posts, usual Tuscan "kancona" :) (seen this today in sport newsby one Italian coach as joke, not following myself)) again hope you liked it all as i presented, always can point to my wrong or "translation", legendary subject & of course important for every medievalist - we should make some film about "Bolgnese mafia" of quasi students, special agents hunting "dinar contrabands" of Dante times :yes .... :) but seriously fun especially for country as ours which was almost like some "Atlantis", "now you see it, now you don't" ;) and how your intelectauls dealt with it... consider annex on this all.

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Re: swords and sandals/historical notes

Post by Ale » 2024-01-11 19:56, Thursday

....reading lately one text touching my subject & story, I'm btw private investigator and not involved in every discovery ;

in some village in central Serbia grave stone was found in shape of obelisk, dating from mod XIV c. Text was short (online not grave, but that one wasn't long as well) but quasi tells about some guy who "served emperor Urosh V (the last, "the weak") and Lazar (who died in famous battle)". Guy allegedly also died in battle, they presume in 1369. Archeos say that's it is first (and only if understood) that mentiones Lazar and emperor Urosh together in any form as document...

why interesting? they speculate that battle in 1369 was maybe between some imperial forces (of Urosh), Lazar and maybe Altoman's son together versus infamous and suddenly powerful brothers Vukashin and Uglesius ; happened maybe also on Kosovo field (frequent place for battles since X c) and not known why and how it ended, but not huge battle... so for story about Vukashin and his relations with Urosh (whom he killed and never reached such old age as on fresco)). Not sure about that as grave stone doesn't mention specifically anything except death in battle of similar time - quasi Mauro Orbini (whose work in total i never read, btw) also mentioned such battle and actors in his works, but his work is often based on legends and stories and writen much later, not on documents.

interesting puzzle our Vukashin, and if such things could be reconstructed as said we would have one super historical story, esp. regarding his spectacular death in battle with other empire in rising, after he killed last emperor of another empire :) epic story par excellence... that much to add, if you want to share something about similar subjects and something you doubt/find interesting from older history, can do it even here, I'm listening

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Re: swords and sandals/historical notes

Post by Ale » 2024-01-11 23:40, Thursday

BTW - i never know when will i post again ) - not to lose one idea, maybe interesting for my eventual Italian and French readers, maybe not :) (but you should join or say something, not just reading) but queens Anna Dandolo and 'Elen of Caro-Anjo-Capet do have some shy streets - but small, "blind" and on deep periphery of both capital and second largest town of Nish, so it is not proportional to their importance so i recommend "bullevards" )

to finish with this also, in contrast to mentioned later chroniclers who wrote about events centuries later and often had some political agenda or idea and as i said "racially looked at things" (disease of later centuries not present in middle ages that much if any, and we are not talking black-white-yellow things)) so in contrast to all that and even Orbini or similar Croatian "Ilirians" - my posts were in sense and part (in good spirit) "back to the roots" and stressing importance of Italian lands (and Venice) for Rascia, whose successor in a part is Serbia etc. So not all ex-Yugosarm lands had same story and my legacy should be (again) telling some things as they happened, as much as it is possible in almost impossible circumstances of lost sources and details... as said million times - it was not any Illirian nor other unity idea that created our state and special identity, it was few very good marriages in XIII c with Italians and French, opinion. So bit contrary to things like "Illirians" and some eventual and should be unnatural Italo-phobia in Serbs... in that sense even comments on Dante's work shows how progress of time inserted "racial terms" not used once in Italian comments of XIV c, example but good one. Bullevard for Ana :) ...what made me laugh is how Croatian Illirians of later centuries quasi wrote how Alexander was "their", while one could hardly find name "Aleksandar" among Serb elite in middle ages, so obviously they disliked him etc etc. :) Glad that state was created with Greeks and Italians, btw ; ...that's why it reached glory and even fame as far as Bologna :) and Firenze, but was long time ago.... today we are nobody, just aiming Uranus ) and future...

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Re: swords and sandals/historical notes

Post by Ale » 2024-01-12 14:45, Friday

...or, to say with humor & simplified - "Illirianism" and unity was understood by others around Serbs as for Croats "hey Serbs, let's unite against Italians", for Bosniaks (Bosnian muslims) as "hey Serbs, let's unite against christians", for Montenegrians "hey Serbs, let's unite against Serbs" and so on :) ....not so bad subject - and even Napoleon/Nabulione gave personal touch on events and subject by creating some "Illirian provinces" and in the same time opting to ignore/ruin Venice and Serbia :lol What to expect from Genoese :) and so on, great for humor...

to return to serious investigations, probably for end... our medeival history lovers, be it international or domestic must understand and I underline again, that many of subjects are often based on some incomplete stories, legends or "hear-say" so many things that people think they know "as facts" are actually not that certain, sure not known... so that example of mentioned battle in 1369 - narrative, including Mauro i guess, is that Nikola Altomanović, Lazar and Urosh V made deal/alliance against Vukashin and it says quasi: "...however, after Lazar pulled out at the critical moment they were defeated at Kosovo in 1369." (Vukashin won, hence) But is dubious as many narratives so why some documents like grave stone give some light... to joke, hope Lazar did not "pull out at the critical moment" of another Kosovo battle 20 years later :) ...so seriously, we can not scientifically confirm such narratives and did Lazar really have such role, what was his relation with Vukashin as whole and did he take part in actions against Altoman, his sons - in one source he is not mentioned at all in "crushing" of Altoman's son and he outlived Lazar and so on... problem with Lazar in such stories is that he had good relations with Altoman's family via good relations with Branko's family, as Altoman was married to Branko's sister etc. So whole narative is dubious, who dive into details...

in sphere of stories - i was young again to remember them well :) - one of them is that Altoman's father was central figure in events that led to rise of Dushan... while his son's already were in Dushan's "inner circle" (including Altoman) they say that moment when senior changed sides and supported Dushan led to fall of Stefan Dechanski. some important areas, including Ras to central Serbia, Rudnik maybe, many important monasteries like Milesheva etc. - including fortress Zvechan where Dechanski allegedly died, were in that family possesion in one moment... international readers could check English wiki page on "Altoman" which is solid, for example. So i will not say that events went like narratives, say for what it mattersbut for historic pedantery ; More important for looks at Lazar maybe, as he was enigma as many in "chaos era" (we are fast, not like Romans needing 200-300 years, we did it in 20-30)) anf if true by that detail, why he pulled in critical moment enabling Vukashin's possible gains etc.

as said, always like to add as i already talked that much, who knows maybe for some international subject lovers (including Gabriele and Aldiss, to mention prominent)) - all that is field of narratives and we in reality have no idea "who pulled out in critical moment" and who supported/liked whom. Altoman and Branko were of greater importance than any Margnanus or Pribac initially, but it twisted out in spectacular way so Lazar and Vukashin (sons of duo) ended in legend and history. the end.

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Re: swords and sandals/historical notes

Post by Ale » 2024-01-12 18:20, Friday

btw again, kinda important for lovers and linguistics - regarding name, which is indeed very rare (but not as rare as Aleksandar in us in middle ages)) and original... it is not related to Germanic languages most likely nor forms present among Ashkenazi Jews today, nor derivate. One our old academy member from XIX c gave theory (and i support it, regarding his feud initial nearness of Adriatic coast) and nicked him "high-handed" (maybe used sometimes) translating that his Latin form was Altomanus i.e. "high-hand"... so yes, probably another Latinism i.e. Italianism, similar to form Baldo-vin we used, and are Italianisms. Of course, we don't have document on why named that way, but most likely that it was Italian influence in both cases, not to speculate and relate it to other languages and forms... High-manus for whatever reason, just -us was cut offso it looks like -man, what it maybe wasn't. He and Baldovin were my favs in whole era )

what to say, we had many Italian and French wives hence such names like Baldo & Alto... too bad I was to young then to remember them :)

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Re: swords and sandals/historical notes

Post by Ale » 2024-01-12 22:43, Friday

will add this as well, with "apology" to my readers ) ...why "apology" since it is great subject and related to era of games we play (some less, some more)

well "apology" is really since this is not "swords and sandals" nor my topics really, but will post this map i just seen (in Wiki article, you can find) and becuase it is fresh for me too on many levels. Map of distribution of Jews or percentage, dated 1881 ; ...sadly doesn't include whole Europe, but luckily (as i did not know) include Serbia as well, enough to show color/percent... map from German lands, maybe estimate, maybe real but interesting... did not know that we had same percent as Italy and France, albeit small under 1%. Also did not know that Romania (without Transilvania then) had more than Hungary, did not know that all regions of Austria (except Vienna metropolitan area) had the least of whole Europe... and so on, see if you get something new from it, to me new facts ; ...brown is with most, then red etc. white almost without, as said we had similar percent to Italy and France

again not my theme nor so super interesting to me :) but since mentioned Ashkenazis (our were mostly Spanish Jews, other kind) looked at map... to get back to "my themes" - Lazar is indeed name from Judea but again penetrated here via crusaders, in again Italianized version similar to other words not as our medieval elite "cared" for Jewish names, but is cool name in this version & today very popular... Altoman is Kesarian & Baldovin because he wasn't popular in Greece and Bulgaria and reached high ministerial position in Serbia :) ...as said million times always join me with some historical themes/maps or similar, while my passion is ended somwhere around 1459...

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Re: swords and sandals/historical notes

Post by Ale » 2024-01-14 20:02, Sunday

...i was calculating last few days :) about revival of Jewish community in comparison between Italy and Serbia, so as Wiki article says that there are 1000+ here and 10000+ in Italy i concluded that - since Italy is 10x bigger - we are in same level as of 1881 ;

anyway, must say again, in a post which is "sunday funnies" category and without any special subject that in light of "Elisabeth Olsen affair" (who doesn't follow my posts she said few years ago allegedly that "Serbia doesn't have any history of own and is country 13 years old" (paraphrase)) - that need for things like big Ana Dandolo monument (150 meters), Flavia Felix and rebuilding castles is "urgent"... simply every visitor from abroad, esp. from afar, across oceans to see that queen once had such bombastic name, that Felix, known in London and Hollywood once camped here for centuries, that Celts founded city and similar. Statue of Augustanus, Vespasianus and 15+ emperors born here, even Tacticus like in Vienna ; and every queen and king... without any joke, something like that. While having phalus like buildings is OK (who needs them for orgies) obviously more have to be done in historical "image" and representation...

Italians are (haha)) really people of high culture and style. Grateful very much to Enrico for taking part in contest and winning and doing daring statue, thanks to Gabriele for (even without visiting unlike dear Elisabeth) knowing more epic poems than myself and even names of hills in Belgrade, really high style and culture... as for dear Elisabeth - must say not known her that much as having heroes like Altoman and Baldovin, not Captain America and was reading some Italian comics :) - and we don't take her anything as bad and malicious... maybe she ment we don't have anything as everything was taken from us through centuries (even pieces of thig as small as "Branko's belt" on two different ends of Europe, Britain and Russia) ; ...she is cute and I gladly give her role in film with guy i posted above (Dusciano) and important role of Habsburg princess who "dies of fear" instantly upon hearing that she's to marry our god-king in 1330s :yes Elisabeth is born for role :) doesn't matter but cute story if she said... always join if something is talkable, this more fun post without some info or story...

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Re: swords and sandals/historical notes

Post by Ale » 2024-01-15 15:16, Monday

through years and recently wasn't able to determine what "rascia" in wider meaning post-renaissance was as clothing part or detail, must say, although never was interest nor i honestly read a book about it :) Italians are "mannequins" and responsible for fashion and subjects in our family :) so really let's leave that for them and their field-historians to determine ; ...but how not like details and fact that Florentines, Genoese, maybe even Venetians wore some "rascia" through centuries, another our tie with medieval Firenze, as we say. Not to mention Tuscany as whole, with whose we shared initial "exo-endonym"

however found really various kind of texts on English language touching subject and while we can (maybe) agree that initially term in Florence (and wider) included something "wollen and black" it gradually transformed and continued in various expensive and diverse clothing forms. Cambridge (university) texts have even this lines
...Florentine rascia, or rash, a luxury silk cloth, was regularly sent to the merchant Paul Vincenzo Sauli Rapallo in Cordoba by his uncle Teramo Brignole and his associates, who lived in Florence...
hence relating it with silk even and some even say that female portraits on Van Dyck portraits wore "rascia" and so on... hardly subject to die for :) but is nice, maybe another one i could discuss with you, my principessa ;) Also will add this part/text in which "rascia" is mentioned plentiful

https://evolutionarytailoring.wordpress ... guarnello/

"The guarnello, rascia, or saia is the standard form of dress for angels." :) Italians, sisters par excellence ;

similar is theme of armor and look of our armor, and theory that we had own school of modified Italian armor, Turks noted "as unseen" for them in early battles etc etc. I don't know, must be greatest "eulogy" or commendation that places like Florence, Bologna but whole Italian lands are related with us from clothing, to armor and money :) ....BTW, unrelated - looking through Italian texts learned another difference - regarding "lilly", they say that French was yellow and that nakes it different from one used in Italian lands, and our in modern coat of arms is yellow - BUT we can't determine color of one used by Miluten and others in our heraldry ;

nice subjects, doing what i can to shorten it and present it interestingly. There was a lot of "history hijack" by others, which doesn't make us unique but why not telling things as they were... read so many through years on various topics and there were lines like "Croats spread hussites through Europe", "Serb armies were Byzantine or Slavic in look" and so on, so we are talking stories here and not lying anyone nor hating anyone... similar is question of our medieval artefacts and medieval treasures as said and minimal level of decency and culture is recognizing it ;

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Re: swords and sandals/historical notes

Post by Ale » 2024-01-16 03:37, Tuesday

silly me did not post link to "more important" text, while intended ) so here it is

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 3C74AB1655

good one, interesting... But it is in vain to read it if unable to find inetresting parts for our story, for me/us maybe the most in "Materializing black" named paragraph as it explains cultural/political etc trend and craze to which maybe "rascia" (as fashion detail) is related, and predating it but forgotten or never known by others, but Italians preserved it in name. Of course we don't know nor we can't say that motives of our famous "black aristocaracy", if wore it for same and similar motivations and as staus symbols later, but fact remains that many things fit into story, timeline related... despot Stefan was, btw (talked about it and only one source mentions her so enigma) married to Genoese family girl and (super) text mentiones Burgundian ruler also named Philip as one of pioneeres of fashion - for whome Bertrand(on) de la Broquiere "worked" and met our second despot George (also "black aristocracy" by Greek initial sources, we are talking 10-15 years later) and whome he named "richest of all Europe"... convinient fitting and dates, could be said it was start of that fashion maybe continentally in time that spread to Spain above all etc. Simply it fits, without any other conclusions, while of course our and Florentine ties and naming of clothes are older as attested by Dante century earlier etc etc. But could be "rascia" is part of trend and maybe main thing in Italian "attribute" in name... likable even if it meant final days for us :) but story is 10+

anyway, final interstings for our readers - we of course do not have preserved sources and docs on huge industrial activity, Belgrade was of medium size then for example (few 10000 of population) but interesting is that Serbs in majority were related to land, warfare and similar (piracy)) not main wool producers (if we presume that wool fabrics started name which obviously Florentines used wide and on all sort of materials) - by greater documents like Dushans code, stipulating some rights of "Vlachs" and Albanians as main sheep hearders etc. Other thing and last, if i did not mention in post (it is early)) our "blackness" in famous sources predating it, was related to armor as well... bravo for preservation of detail Toscana :yes ...as said, politically and unrelated to subject and fashion and clothing, if you want some prospective on events - could be "greater game" we took part in since XIV c, and some dubious role both we and some central Italian cities played in times when France strengthened its positions, Philip IV and all - generally unclear and even "Venetian laws" against us are alligned with Florentine money flaws timeline - which both paid English kings and French-dominated papacy etc. Glad that we played some role as Dante would say, Bologna agenture and all and left some mark on continent just in time to "leave the scene"... but totally unrelated to story of fashion details and colors, wanted to add as some reader might wonder how come "rascia" in mid-Italian cities suddenly, wasn't so sudden and we had family from popes to doges. Big kiss to Italian sisters, made us eternal and i repeat that Dushan did not lie anthing in love letters to Venice :) we had style once ;

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Posting Habits...

Post by HexCode » 2024-01-16 08:34, Tuesday

Posted under topic entitled... "Paths to Nuclear War" :huh in THIS forum:
Ale wrote:
2024-01-13 23:16, Saturday
apropos first few post and "world" - of course not related but is good for laugh...

reading (pardon) in WC today some text (our) about Elisabeth Olsen, actress and she allegedly by text (never heard, but do not follow) said few years ago: "Serbia is country without anything, was always ruled by others and exists only for 13 years" :) (so i guess she said it in 2019, even if not mentioned in text)...and she quasi spent 2 weeks here years before that statement.

well mild shock, albeit more fun than one to feel bad about... and we are talking one of oldest independent countries in whole east Europe in some "sui iuris" almost 200 years... pause of some 350 years before and then almost 800-900 years of some statehood ; (here, not to mention Servius who ruled Rome))...can imagine how it is for many others in the world. BTW, good luck with tries to animate or tell anything in small pub - as you noticed ; my tries to "fish" someone with own subjects was as it was, but nonetheless like the stories i shared, wasn't hard... really don't know what else to add, added to sport & "sandals", good luck again
You may want to take a look here:

It Would Be Nice But Not Necessary...
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=949#p17468

Relatedly, keep on posting. In case you hadn't noticed, there's absolutely no "competition". For all practical purposes, you are the "Pub". Enjoy ! ;)
Last edited by HexCode on 2024-01-18 13:29, Thursday, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: swords and sandals/historical notes

Post by Ale » 2024-01-17 22:16, Wednesday

it is pub, just relax... so much hostility against culture & history subjects, united in hate

ehhh, my Vinegia, my serenissima - how did we end up here after all we've been through... tough question esp. for us.

while you are debating regulation of "assisted medical suicide" we are continiously in state of non-assisted political suicide as country :)

on pic is current Doge of Vinegia, signor Luca, having some (they say) rift and trouble with chef, Matteo... don't care nor follow internal Italian politics, nor i know details, nor parties of liking nor i have any favs - it is just my fav country, looking for best relations, not following parties... but Doge is our pal, which is above daily politics as we have eternal cooperation with Vinegia, regardless of political garnitures (except if they start some war)). Was our guest few times and of course primar interest is to encourage more our citizens to visit that city and region, although we have few friendly regions in Italy and quasi-cooperation with Rome for known reasons... but Vinegia is always special.

looked to add more humor as is known subject for us and sister-region, but nothing else, bored man when it comes to politics without substance i.e. some good marriage, maybe to rest from older history and from big names... it will be better my Vinegia, indeed our cities look like Venice center :) miss those old romantic days when we were something, hope you finance the monument... 130 m? 120? ) ...always few questions if you Italian and can help with some older themes, of course

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