Maps image quality (and long-term survival)

[Szperacz]

I understand the possible reasons maps stored on OG users servers have limited size. Still - the reality is that map quality was broken and the original beautiful maps are now compressed files with visible artifacts, noise, banding issues etc.

You could say it doesn't matter - but if I have a choice between ugly and nice-looking chess I'll choose the latter. I like this game and I would like it to be as beautiful as possible so that it's also an aesthetically fulfilling experience. Alright, alright, it already is, but it can be even better.

The original PG2 maps in the original quality can be found. The originals of user-created maps are probably unobtainable, am I correct? So we're dependent on the map files currently available on the server, in their current quality (unless someone has the originals on his disk).

So what to do with it. Current, compressed, map quality can be improved by using available tools, ai quality enhancers, upscaling, etc. Here's a quick example (I didn't spend any time on fine-tuning the configuration, so it's just an example of the defaults):

Before:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fRXh5S ... sp=sharing

After:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LGSaI9 ... sp=sharing

Now - who would store such images on their server and pay for this storage? No one. Servers which store OG maps will disappear, it's just a matter of time. Even this forum will disappear with time. But no matter how big would be the package with every map it can be shared as a torrent. And torrent will live as long as there is at least a single person who shares it - without a server and money included.

My question - how could I access all the maps available for OG (so probably all the maps on the server) to see how viable would be the quality enhancement path (and how much would it cost), and check the torrent possibilities.

[randowe]

Personaly i use the png versions of the maps. You can download them from mapfinder.
8 bit png files have less colors (you will not notice in the game), but lossless compression and no ugly jpg artifacts.

Even for the maps i created my own, i always use the png maps as resources for map making and play with the 8 bit maps myself.

[none]

Servers which store OG maps will disappear, it's just a matter of time.

Unfortunately it is... That's why I've been slowly, over the years, downloading maps from Gilestiel's map finder, so I can keep playing Open General offline (and whatever happens).

So far my collection (only JPG files, bar some exceptions and the maps I made myself) is around 820 MB... And that is only the maps I deemed interesting for some personal reason (usually maps I planned to use for my campaigns). I guess all the maps would go well over one GB in JPG, and 2 (or even 3) times as heavy in PNG. That's a lot, I'm afraid Gilestiel's will go down if several people start downloading GBs of map data in a row (bandwidth is expensive!). I for one have been careful to not download more than a dozen maps/month.
I guess the solution would be to ask whoever manages that server, and thus has all those files locally.

[Szperacz]

I should investigate this better before speaking. I didn't know about PNGs on Mapfinder. They're indeed without compression artifacts.
And OG is downloading JPGs by default with no possibility to change it. So the option is to download all the maps as PNG from mapfinder.

I also thought that the maps can be upscaled 2x and the game will show it like the old map, just with better quality - but the map must have the same resolution unfortunately. So the possible, but debatable, option would be to ai upscale 2x, and then downscale to the original resolution.

[Szperacz]

Servers which store OG maps will disappear, it's just a matter of time.

Unfortunately it is... That's why I've been slowly, over the years, downloading maps from Gilestiel's map finder, so I can keep playing Open General offline (and whatever happens).

So far my collection (only JPG files, bar some exceptions and the maps I made myself) is around 820 MB... And that is only the maps I deemed interesting for some personal reason (usually maps I planned to use for my campaigns). I guess all the maps would go well over one GB in JPG, and 2 (or even 3) times as heavy in PNG. That's a lot, I'm afraid Gilestiel's will go down if several people start downloading GBs of map data in a row (bandwidth is expensive!). I for one have been careful to not download more than a dozen maps/month.

Yeah, that's also why I thought about torrent which could be an alternative. Anyone who wants could download the whole package - few GBs is nothing when you need to conquer the world with your panzers.

[sympatyk]

It's difficult for me to write in English, sorry if something is not understandable...
You've hit the spot
Luis, and only he, has complete knowledge about servers
As far as I know or guess -->
MF server - is not used to download maps, because
- there is a limited transfer, limited file size
- Gilestiel only keeps it for the community due to his old interest in the game - he has been inactive for a long time
- This is the only map viewer for the community - so don't generate unnecessary network traffic
- I resigned myself (all my maps in png format were deleted) to reduce the number and weight of files stored on this server
- Files downloaded from MF may differ in size in px from those we play on - they are not updated
- recently Luis has a problem with uploading files to MF and asks Gilestiel about it
- the quality of jpg files was forced by the above-mentioned reasons and limited to 70% quality and a maximum size of 5 MB

-----------------------------

Two servers are used to automatically download maps in jpg format
Luis has his own server and stores all the stuff for PG/OG there

--------------------------------
Now the question is - is it possible (formally and technically) to copy the data + MF browser to another server - how much would it cost and the conditions it must meet?

--------------------------------
File quality in jpg format
This whole complicated issue --> spread over time by technical conditions (transfer, file size limitation), available software (over time - history), format of accepted files in the game (shp, bmp, png, jpg...)
In the beginning, files were in indexed color
Maps are created in 256 colors
When working with such maps - creating your own - you have to keep these conditions --> this is what Randowe does
I created maps from scratch in 24 bit or 36 bit space
Then I converted it to png (with the restrictions above)
To cope with this, I had to reduce the colors to even 56 for large maps
Luis, on the other hand, generated a jpg file from it
What do you think - what quality is it?
That's why I showed that it's better to generate a jpg file myself (without color limits) and not send png files
My valid png files were 7-50MB --> so they did not meet the conditions
It is important to realize that as the game developed, file sizes were allowed
1920x1920px
3135x3000px later changed to 3150x3000px
5400x5500px
The latter only jpg

[Szperacz]

Oh indeed, I see that your maps (and some other authors maps too) are available only in jpg. What a shame.

Regardless of storing the maps on servers (I hope administrators will continue to do a great job), I'm focusing on the torrent alternative, where files stay on our disks and can be as big as we like, in bazillion colors and with bells and whistles. I'm preparing a package of all the OG maps with the highest quality I can find.

Files downloaded from MF may differ in size in px from those we play on - they are not updated

I didn't know that. Is there anywhere else I can find the current files?

Now the question is - is it possible (formally and technically) to copy the data + MF browser to another server - how much would it cost and the conditions it must meet?

Servers I know have such a cost:
~6 EUR/month for 20 GB disk space and 20 TB traffic (Hetzner VPS)

[RoyalBengalTiger]

Howdy all y'all,

How many maps are there in total?

[sympatyk]

Also remember about broadly understood copyright
For example, this map 21 ... has "troublesome" copyrights
Some creators also did not agree to changes, publishing by other people...
There were historical turmoil with maps
Switching from the shp format to png and jpg (in the process enlarging 1 px) - nothing, but one thing changed the number of hexes
The same transition from 3135px to 3150 - change in hex counting
That's why I decided to crop all maps from 3135 to 3120 px. If you see a map with dimensions 3135 --> it is incorrect
Then, initially sending PNG maps (of lower quality --> automatic generation of JPG maps of lower quality) --> replacement with only JPG maps (of better quality)
Maps downloaded automatically are considered valid (official)

OG is the official project - Luis is the boss

[Szperacz]

Of course. I want to immortalize the maps, because doing nothing will just lead to servers and maps disappearing with time. And to give the users an option to download the package of all the maps in highest possible quality, as OG itself downloads them in lower - JPGs. (And the third option, which I need to experiment with, to try to improve the map quality using some "ai" enhancements, things like that).

Ultimately I can prepare a package just for myself - I'll still achieve my goal, which is to have it. It's just that other people won't have it and it won't make the life easier for new players (like myself).

I have now all the PNG maps from mapfinder, and JPGs where PNG was unavailable on my disk (2.2 GB), so that's the current state of this package. I'll compare the maps with those from PG2 to check if they're the same quality.

I'll wait with other steps for your guys opinion about it.

[none]

improve the map quality using some "ai" enhancements, things like that

Don't count too much on it, for it violates a fundamental law of physics (entropy).
The problem is that once the initial information is lost, you can't recreate it, you can just recreate some, more or less fitting new information. Once the picture information is lost to compression, it is gone forever...

Also, AI is the current marketing buzzword ("Peak of inflated expectations" on Gartner's Hype Cycle... ), AI is not some kind of Harry Potter™-type magic spell solving everything...
I've played with generative image AI (installed Stable Diffusion XL at home): Results are nice, often surprisingly good, but most of the time just surprising... And always, invariably, quite some way from what I had expected or hoped for.


TL;DR: You can not "repair" JPGs, you can only try to make compression artifacts less visible. But by doing this, you'll lose some more of the initial picture information...

[Szperacz]

Have a look:

Before:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fRXh5S ... sp=sharing

After:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LGSaI9 ... sp=sharing

Look at the bridges for example. But yeah, it's just a curiosity I wonder about. We cannot upscale maps so the possibilities are limited.

I agree about the buzzwords, blockchain, NFT, now "AI", yada yada. But also - as skeptical as I was, after I started using it for work and learning stuff - it's truly something else, a revolutionary thing and technically it's greatly useful.

[none]

Nice. Assuming link #2 is link #1 after something happened, what exactly was it that happened?

[sympatyk]

There is one more thing
For some, these "classic" maps are synonymous with this game --> it's as if you changed an old tank (with historical camouflage) to the colors of the future --> that's why maps made in a different style were unacceptable for some...

[Szperacz]

Nice. Assuming link #2 is link #1 after something happened, what exactly was it that happened?

It's one of the available tools: https://letsenhance.io. What happened is an 2x upscale with - like you said - "AI" generated "fix", and some other things I'm not sure about now, like colors - too green mountains became more brown.

There is one more thing
For some, these "classic" maps are synonymous with this game --> it's as if you changed an old tank (with historical camouflage) to the colors of the future --> that's why maps made in a different style were unacceptable for some...

I'm thinking about it in terms of two separate things:
1. Having a package of all the maps in the best possible quality (but unchanged maps)
2. If it would make sense, having a separate package with "improved(?)" maps

[randowe]

Howdy all y'all,

How many maps are there in total?

Welcome to the forum

There are 1557 maps at mapfinder. Some bigger maps (called XXL) can be found at the OG website.
But there are some more XXL maps that are hosted in the Polish forum or in threads here.
And probably there are more maps that never got shared by their creators.

Then there are tiled maps, but i don't know how many. These maps use the standard OG tiles.

[RoyalBengalTiger]

That's a lot of maps.

For long term, I will put forward the crazy idea of innovation.

How hard would it be to convert to say Unity engine?
This would allow for a hex map, turn based strategy, but with 3D.


Disregard the front line, the user interface, the out of scale huge infantry, etc., but look at the 3D buildings, trees and terrain.
This amount of territory is tiny on the scale of Hearts of Iron, but it would be about right for OG (Vilnius to Minsk).

In other words, keep the gameplay exactly unchanged (the pace units move, the length of battle animations, the scale, all details exactly as they are now), but add a 3rd dimension to the graphics.

[Szperacz]

A matter of taste. With rtx 4080 on a monster PC I still prefer to play panzer(open) general in 2d. I vastly prefer 2d in strategies. It's sad that everything goes into 3d. 2d games can be timeless even after years (recently I spent hours on panzer general 2 in 800x600 on a 4k 32'' monitor). 3d often look like s... after some time.

And the community-project aspect and how 3d complicates things and 2d simplifies. We have grandpas building stuff for open general in paint

(Btw. that's why I don't play hearts of iron 4 - I don't like what they did with graphics)

[sympatyk]

There are always 2 dimensions in a picture --> the third dimension is just tricking the brain...
Would you consider these maps three-dimensional? (see in real scale)
http://www.opengeneral.pl/map/50004.jpg
http://www.opengeneral.pl/map/50010.jpg

[Dimitris GR]

I am with 2D. If i want 3D i play (rare) real time games.

[none]

I vote for 2D too: 3D was a marketing fad in games (all of a sudden everything needed to be in 3D), and a serious step back in pleasure, good looks and ease of use. Not only did you need to control the camera, all your pretty pixel-perfect sprites were replaced by clunky 3D models with blurry textures. I definitely prefer 2D sprites for strategic games, they're more precise and way prettier. 3D is for FPS and such.

Besides, in the case of Open General all content is made by hobbyists, and how many people here know how to make 3D maps and unit meshes? It would be twice the work for a way less good looking result.
And there is no real point in having 3D maps in OG. Except maybe for line-of-sight calculations (units on a hill/mountain seeing/shooting farther), something which you could as well implement on a 2D map. It's not like you need to see a bump to know that's a hill...

[randowe]

I am also in team 2D. Without the beautiful classic maps, the game would not be the same.

[RoyalBengalTiger]

Alrighty then...
I do agree with the charm of 2D, it's just that even Heroes of Might and Magic are full 3D now... it's a sign of the times.

How about an increase in the icon resolution at least? So that tank wheels do not appear as squares because of lack of available pixels...

[none]

even Heroes of Might and Magic are full 3D now...

Which is why I still play HoMM 3, and refused to buy any more recent versions...
The old-fashioned, medieval illumination style look fits perfectly well with the game's spirit. Putting 3D into that, is like adding a spoiler to a Ford Model T: As useless as it is ridiculous...

[Dimitris GR]

Alrighty then...
I do agree with the charm of 2D, it's just that even Heroes of Might and Magic are full 3D now... it's a sign of the times.

How about an increase in the icon resolution at least? So that tank wheels do not appear as squares because of lack of available pixels...

Beautiful Tank

[randowe]

Alrighty then...
I do agree with the charm of 2D, it's just that even Heroes of Might and Magic are full 3D now... it's a sign of the times.

How about an increase in the icon resolution at least? So that tank wheels do not appear as squares because of lack of available pixels...

There are 17000+ icons. Who is going to newly create all of these? And there is a defined hex size and with bigger icons the overlap will become bigger and ugly.
Oh and while you are at it. There are thousands of missing icons. Maybe create them as well. So we speak about 25000 icons

The hex size, icons and maps are all dependent on each other. It is not possible to change that.

[Duke Falcon]

Alrighty then...
I do agree with the charm of 2D, it's just that even Heroes of Might and Magic are full 3D now... it's a sign of the times.

How about an increase in the icon resolution at least? So that tank wheels do not appear as squares because of lack of available pixels...

There are 17000+ icons. Who is going to newly create all of these? And there is a defined hex size and with bigger icons the overlap will become bigger and ugly.
Oh and while you are at it. There are thousands of missing icons. Maybe create them as well. So we speak about 25000 icons

The hex size, icons and maps are all dependent on each other. It is not possible to change that.

Yepp!
If we want "upscaled" stuffs we need an OG v2.0 what basicly would (if ever happen) use things 2x or 3x of the current ones. Like hexes of 150x180 and such. But imagine to recreate everything bigger and more detailed! The community would be bee-busy for about a decade

[jcoles]

Increasing the pixel clarity of the units would be much more valuable than 3D maps in my opinion.