Historical or modern place/country names?

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Historical or modern place/country names?

Post by none » 2024-03-18 09:30, Monday

There is an issue which has been bugging me for years: Shouldn't maps of a given period bear names of that given period, no matter how much politically incorrect those names might seem today?

It's not only about historical accuracy, it's mostly to help people spot famous battlegrounds and situations, given most places now bear a totally different name, and many are now in a different country too!... :doh

Yet, we still speak of the "Battle of Stalingrad", not the "Battle of Volgograd", to take an obvious example...

It is also very annoying for country map attribution. It makes difficult to spot maps at Gilestiel's, for instance maps of the USSR which split into a dozen different modern countries. I understand people of those countries don't like to be reminded about that era, but I'm afraid that's History: Those maps are illustrations of past History and should not in any way be construed as contemporary political claims. It would help a lot if we used the relevant old countries' names (not "Russia" but "USSR").

So, question to all: Shouldn't maps of 19xx bear names of 19xx, and not 2024? What do you think*?

Please explain your arguments.

* Besides the obvious feasibility issue of changing a couple thousand existing maps' names/countries. I'm talking theoretically here...

sympatyk
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Re: Historical or modern place/country names?

Post by sympatyk » 2024-03-18 12:48, Monday

:howdy
It is not that easy ...
If the map was created for a specific battle - the date of this event is specified --> you can then reproduce the names that were then
However, if you are making a more universal map and there were battles on two different dates - what should you choose?
It's even different if the map is to be used for a hypothetical battle

Depending on the author who speaks a specific language - the subtitles may be different..
Look at the map of Randowe 1560 - there are both German and Polish names there :banana
Also look at my maps (not all) - you will see names in two languages (especially larger towns)

The next point - names written in English
Polish, Russian, Czech and Ukrainian names written in English - in some situations these are strange words - their pronunciation is completely different

Depending on what real map you used as a model (German, Polish, Russian) and from what time period - you will have different names and it may happen that some towns will not be there...

How to deal with it?
I once made two TXT files with names - for loading

"Russia" but "USSR"
The current division is better - some republics from the USSR - are now states - do you want to skip them?
Make two states, Russia and the USSR? - large area overlapping?

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Re: Historical or modern place/country names?

Post by none » 2024-03-18 13:46, Monday

sympatyk wrote:
2024-03-18 12:48, Monday
if you are making a more universal map and there were battles on two different dates - what should you choose?
True, but there is a limit to universality, since terrain features change with time: Take for instance airports: Before WWI there were none, during WWI a few, in WWII a lot more, and after that they were common. Roads change too, and so on.
Besides when you build a specific map you usually have a specific battle (or at least a specific war) in mind, don't you. A Stalingrad map will most likely be used for that battle, 9 times out of 10, even if somebody might at some point re-use it for something else.

sympatyk wrote:
2024-03-18 12:48, Monday
It's even different if the map is to be used for a hypothetical battle
Still for a specific war, so for a specific period.

sympatyk wrote:
2024-03-18 12:48, Monday
Depending on the author who speaks a specific language - the subtitles may be different..
Here again I'd probably advocate to stick with English.
Nobody here is English, but English is the language which allows us all to communicate.

sympatyk wrote:
2024-03-18 12:48, Monday
Polish, Russian, Czech and Ukrainian names written in English - in some situations these are strange words - their pronunciation is completely different
Certainly. But then this is not a geography game: The important thing (IMHO) is that the player can open the Wikipedia article on some war/battle and recognize the names on the map. Personally I don't really care if they are right or wrong, for me they just have to be recognizable.
(Check your "Washington" map (#1510) when I release the v.2 of my E-File and the "Blitzkrieg" campaign coming with it: I've added at least 4 (existing, historical) naval and army bases to it, a special VH and hex name for the White House government buildings, and such... My goal is that somebody living there might feel at home, even if the names are badly spelled...)

sympatyk wrote:
2024-03-18 12:48, Monday
Depending on what real map you used as a model (German, Polish, Russian) and from what time period - you will have different names and it may happen that some towns will not be there...
That's true, and I spent many days looking for a large-scale 1944 map for that Kursk map I'm making, to check for railways and such. I eventually found one, but I admit it wasn't easy and mostly a stroke of luck.

What I do about placing towns, is that I check the historical battle reports, and try to locate the places they mention. Those should be on the map, so the player can understand how things were back then (and feel like he's there, doing that).
If it's not possible to find the exact locations I cheat (placing the locations approximately).


sympatyk wrote:
2024-03-18 12:48, Monday
some republics from the USSR - are now states - do you want to skip them?
I admit I'm doing WWII stuff, so for me those nations simply don't exist. The problem only arises if you do modern day scenarios, in which case you might indeed need the modern nations. :huh
Hadn't thought about that.

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Re: Historical or modern place/country names?

Post by sympatyk » 2024-03-18 14:38, Monday

There are two views of maps
Randowe makes maps for himself - for a specific scenario/battle
I made several such maps (to order).
Other maps - Gustlik said - a map of Krakow, Rzeszów and Sandomierz would be useful --> there were fights there in 1939, partisan fights and in 1944 the front passed through there --> do something...
You look at it as a script creator... and this is a different view

You improved the 1510 map - and very well --> it was made based on google maps...

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Re: Historical or modern place/country names?

Post by none » 2024-03-18 17:09, Monday

sympatyk wrote:
2024-03-18 14:38, Monday
You improved the 1510 map
"Improved" isn't the term I would use. It's just that I needed to place some logical (more credible than random towns and villages) VHs, and have some points of strong resistance south of the city of Washington itself, because the player comes from the north (supposedly New York), and the city of Washington would be the first thing he would take...
Now it so happens that there are lots of Naval, Army and National Guard bases on this map's territory, so I added them, and made them vital to winning the scenario. The southernmost base, Fort Walker, is almost at the southern border of your map, and that forces the player to conquer the whole map.

So, "adapted to my specific needs" is more fitting. :)

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