PGF: "Ephemeral" Posts - Questions & Commentary

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[EPH] The Devil's in the Details: Always

Post by HexCode » 2024-01-15 09:02, Monday

:howdy Lettos,

Kindly take a look here:

Re: [DEV] Negative unit price and fuel
viewtopic.php?f=95&t=956#p17999

The sober realizations therein shouldn't in any way discourage innovative content designers from trying out creative solutions of immediate or longer term, potential usefulness.

[DEV] Content Generation - Ideas, Approaches & Discussions
viewtopic.php?f=95&t=956

is ideally suited for introducing content design novelties enabled by specific play system features. Depending on the novelty under consideration,

[ADV] Advanced Play System - Questions & Commentary
viewtopic.php?f=95&t=470

is the appropriate topic under which "odd" features can be scrutinized. Once definitive conclusions are reached, the Library will be taking over. :bonk

Do all of the above "things" take dedication and time ? You bet ! :2cents
Last edited by HexCode on 2024-02-13 07:15, Tuesday, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PGF: AI purchases

Post by Lettos » 2024-01-16 17:30, Tuesday

Just observations and thoughts, and a fair amount of chaos on them.....

I have not been able to emulate a situation where the AI in tests buys what it buys in scenarios, say on turn 8-10.

It's very complicated with these purchases. On an empty map, AI certainly demonstrates some of its basic shopping principles..... but not much more than that.

So far, it is clear that INFs (class 0) come first in the AI's purchasing priority. In second place are tanks (class 1). Third are recons (class 2).
The number of INFs the AI will buy does not depend on the number or number of its CORE+AUX units in the scenario.
Also, according to tests, the AI's choice of purchases does not depend
- on the number of VHs under the player's control.
- on the number and composition of the player's units.
- on the number and composition of AI units already destroyed.

We were able to establish the dependence of the number of INFs bought on the number of AI-controlled VGs on the map.
From the tests I can see that in the first purchases the AI is very creative and chooses different units of the same class.
After massive first purchases, the AI runs into some kind of Loop in its innards and starts buying only the cheapest units from the allowed classes.

The three classes that are prioritized by the AI are INFs, Tanks, and Recons.
A situation where these three classes are forbidden to buy leads to a very long AI deliberation at the end of the turn, after which nothing happens. That is, we can force the AI to buy only tanks, or only recons. But we can't force it buy only ATYs or ADs.

Another problem: in tests AI never bought ATG, ATY, AD. In practice, it happens regularly. At the same time, observations show that AI when buying ATY and AD is very selective, acts creatively, buys not the cheapest units, and sometimes too expensive.

AI buys them when they should have bought tanks. But it feels like tanks are completely out of AI's mind as a class at this point.
Then the AI goes back to the stage of buying cheap tanks and infantry, and that will be it for good for the end of the scenario.

What do I need to do to switch the AI to the ATY and AD purchase stage?

How to solve this conundrum?

The thing is, playing scenarios where the AI can't buy anything at all is kind of overly predictable.... boring. There needs to be an element of randomness! And it's ideal if even the scenario designer doesn't know exactly how far the boundaries of this programmed randomness are pushed.
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Re: PGF: AI purchases

Post by Radoye » 2024-01-16 17:42, Tuesday

Lettos wrote:
2024-01-16 17:30, Tuesday
What do I need to do to switch the AI to the ATY and AD purchase stage?

How to solve this conundrum?
Maybe try putting some INF units into a VH and immediately around but leave a free hex (or two, or three) for placing new units, see what happens...

Maybe also put a radar or some such with huge spotting so that AI don't need a RCN?

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Re: PGF: AI purchases

Post by Lettos » 2024-01-16 19:08, Tuesday

Radoye wrote:
2024-01-16 17:42, Tuesday
Lettos wrote:
2024-01-16 17:30, Tuesday
What do I need to do to switch the AI to the ATY and AD purchase stage?

How to solve this conundrum?
Maybe try putting some INF units into a VH and immediately around but leave a free hex (or two, or three) for placing new units, see what happens...

Maybe also put a radar or some such with huge spotting so that AI don't need a RCN?
I did both. No effect. :dunno
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[EPH] Play Against the AI - Two Design Approaches

Post by HexCode » 2024-01-18 13:08, Thursday

:howdy Lettos,

... not necessarily exclusive but, in all probability, mutually exhaustive !

In all my years of involvement with PG1-DOS and PGF, I haven't witnessed anything that even comes close to Lettos' "publicly" documented experimentation regarding the AI Module's in-game behavior. I'm amazed as well as intrigued. :clap Incidentally, in an ideal world, the software's programmer should be the one to tell the "hobby". Yeah, right... :rofl

In my opinion, there's another approach as well which raises the bar on the human player. Namely, take advantage of all kinds of play system nuances and exceptions to make the human player jump through many hoops if he is to have some reasonable chance of prevailing. I know, I know, this isn't exactly what SSI had in mind... ;)
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Re: [EPH] Play Against the AI - Two Design Approaches

Post by Lettos » 2024-01-18 15:56, Thursday

HexCode wrote:
2024-01-18 13:08, Thursday
... not necessarily exclusive but, in all probability, mutually exhaustive !

In all my years of involvement with PG1-DOS and PGF, I haven't witnessed anything that even comes close to Lettos' "publicly" documented experimentation regarding the AI Module's in-game behavior. I'm amazed as well as intrigued. :clap Incidentally, in an ideal world, the software's programmer should be the one to tell the "hobby". Yeah, right... :rofl

In my opinion, there's another approach as well which raises the bar on the human player. Namely, take advantage of all kinds of play system nuances and exceptions to make the human player jump through many hoops if he is to have some reasonable chance of prevailing. I know, I know, this isn't exactly what SSI had in mind... ;)
:howdy

I want to say three things right off the bat:
1) The programmer - he's gone. I wonder if Rudankort now misses the fate of his brainchild? With the fact that a lot of things have been revealed recently that he himself at the time of creating the clone game probably didn't even suspect. :dunno
2 and 3) Neither a brain without a tool nor a tool without a brain will do anything. There must be something like grey matter present (however, I haven't picked my skull to check). Others say the substance is actually grey in color. In the case of PGF, too, many people once said many things... some of what was said was confirmed and some was disproved by tests. A researcher (or detective) should only believe the facts. Eyewitness testimony is just that, testimony. They may point the right way, or they may point the wrong way. If we want the truth, we must labour and test!
There's no point in making a scenario and then wondering why it doesn't work that way. It's like coming to a college maths class and being surprised by the fact that 2+2=4. A script designer needs a knowledge base, a toolkit!

And there is a powerful tool called FPGE. :cool
As it turned out, you don't need a programmer to answer some questions ... :idea
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Re: [EPH] Play Against the AI - Two Design Approaches

Post by Radoye » 2024-01-18 17:08, Thursday

Lettos wrote:
2024-01-18 15:56, Thursday
1) The programmer - he's gone. I wonder if Rudankort now misses the fate of his brainchild? With the fact that a lot of things have been revealed recently that he himself at the time of creating the clone game probably didn't even suspect. :dunno
He's busy with PanzerCorps (now up to PanzerCorps 2), which is in many aspects a finished PGF...

Although, some of the original PG1 aspects which gave him most headache when coding PGF have been very much simplified in PzC. And, due to the necessary "eye candy" as required by modern commercial game design, modding became a bit more complex - you needed a 3D modeling software to create unit icons that would fit in with the stock ones, and many files needed to be modified where in PGF there's just one. Both of these put me off from modding PzC, but the game does have a lot of potential and is fully implementing some of the concepts that were discussed when he was working on PGF and me and a few others did the play testing.

But where i - and other hobbyists then frequenting the JP's Panzers Forums - saw PGF as The Product and hoped for it to be properly developed and finished, Mr. Shargin viewed it only as a stepping stool for a professional contract with a commercial game developer company. So there was no real interest in developing it further than a simple proof of concept demonstrator.

And, allegedly, under the terms of the contract he signed, he is not allowed to do any further work on PGF as-is nor to share its source code with anyone...

However, if you wish to take a look - PzC is a good game in itself and allows many more things to be easily customized through simple txt file editing - no hex edit required - also adding advanced scenario design concepts such as event triggers and designated map zones, separate road and rail transport systems etc. I think you would find there many things we discussed over here and in our private correspondence already implemented.

But, for some reason, i still find PGF more fun to tinker with. :dunno

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[EPH] PzC Icon Feature Adoption ? Non-Negotiable

Post by HexCode » 2024-01-19 10:44, Friday

:howdy Radoye,
Radoye wrote:
2024-01-18 17:08, Thursday
... due to the necessary "eye candy" as required by modern commercial game design, modding became a bit more complex - you needed a 3D modeling software to create unit icons that would fit in with the stock ones, and many files needed to be modified...
PzC serving as a Content Development Platform (CDP) ? Not for me. I have my very own ideas and requirements concerning symbolic effectiveness of iconic representations. From my standpoint, PzC's 3D icon "stuff" is a definite deal breaker. Yeah, this matter is not negotiable.
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Re: [EPH] Play Against the AI - Two Design Approaches

Post by Lettos » 2024-01-19 12:12, Friday

Radoye wrote:
2024-01-18 17:08, Thursday
But where i - and other hobbyists then frequenting the JP's Panzers Forums - saw PGF as The Product and hoped for it to be properly developed and finished, Mr. Shargin viewed it only as a stepping stool for a professional contract with a commercial game developer company. So there was no real interest in developing it further than a simple proof of concept demonstrator.

And, allegedly, under the terms of the contract he signed, he is not allowed to do any further work on PGF as-is nor to share its source code with anyone...

However, if you wish to take a look - PzC is a good game in itself and allows many more things to be easily customized through simple txt file editing - no hex edit required - also adding advanced scenario design concepts such as event triggers and designated map zones, separate road and rail transport systems etc. I think you would find there many things we discussed over here and in our private correspondence already implemented.

But, for some reason, i still find PGF more fun to tinker with. :dunno
I've been reading the PzC2 forum. I found a lot of complaints about AI there (actions in attacks, purchasing replacements). Which, judging by the criticism, has remained untouched since the days of Panzer General. Added only multiple patches to AI intelligence in the form of protected hexes, zones, etc.

And, interestingly enough, no one is going to change a thing! Even elementary problems that can be solved by literally a few lines of code remain unsolved or will be solved ... sometime later!
Here is an example: https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=99740
fluffybunnyuk wrote: "One of the best moves i feel would be to reach out to the community through modders by opening up the AI. I'd happily sit down and work through the computers evaluation of moves, if it meant putting an AI mod out there for improved AI. This of course depends on whether the AI is hard coded into the binary or more flexibly accessed through a library or module, and could thus be made available via a script."
I will say that it's really quite interesting to look at what I myself do in the game, and try to translate the logical sequences in my own attack/defence thinking into written rules on paper. Some things even worked out much better than the AI when you then repeat those actions in a Player vs Player game :) :2cents

Yes, MVT Types parameters, which we thanks to Hexcode can easily correct in PGF with hex-editing, in PzC2 can be fixed in CSV.

I personally have one technical and financial problem with PzC2 though.

System requirements for PzC2: RAM 8GB, Video memory 2-4GB.
https://www.systemrequirementslab.com/c ... ps-2/15663

It mean a computer upgrade for me. :notsure :doh More precisely, its replacement with new one :no on which I can run this game and, for example, test some things in test scenarios. It turned out that the joy of playing PzC2 will cost me at least $600 (and I don't need a desktop computer and large LCD display at home!). Or if I like better comfort with laptop - about $800-1000. That's quite a lot for the cost of one game! :nyet
Typical focus on a gamer audience that isn't embarrassed by these and much higher prices for the sake of entertainment.

So there's no way PzC2 works for me. The cons far outweigh the pros. :dunno :o :2cents
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Re: [EPH] Play Against the AI - Two Design Approaches

Post by Radoye » 2024-01-19 14:45, Friday

Lettos wrote:
2024-01-19 12:12, Friday
I've been reading the PzC2 forum.
I have no experience with PzC2 so i can't comment. I only ever played PzC (the original one, with all its add-ons) and my comments were based on that. PzC (the original one) is indeed a finished and polished PGF, according to Mr. Shargin's ideas and visions, with some of which i agree and some of which i don't. But a lot of things that we wished for and asked him to put into PGF ultimately ended up in PzC (the original one).

(In fact, i do feel a little used now - we the community at JP's volunteered help and support for Mr. Shargin with his efforts to develop PGF only for it to evolve into a commercial product for his own benefit... At least he left us the unfinished PGF, he could've taken that away from us too... :notsure )
Lettos wrote:
2024-01-19 12:12, Friday
System requirements for PzC2: RAM 8GB, Video memory 2-4GB.
https://www.systemrequirementslab.com/c ... ps-2/15663
PzC (the original one) worked fine on my previous computer (purchased in 2007, retired maybe a couple of years ago? during Covid-19 anyhow) so it does not need top-shelf level equipment to run. :dunno
HexCode wrote:
2024-01-19 10:44, Friday
PzC serving as a Content Development Platform (CDP) ? Not for me. I have my very own ideas and requirements concerning symbolic effectiveness of iconic representations. From my standpoint, PzC's 3D icon "stuff" is a definite deal breaker. Yeah, this matter is not negotiable.
Indeed, for me too. I am not willing to put in the extra hours needed to master some 3D modeling tool just to create a few unit icons. My free time available for hobbies is already severely limited as-is, so i am sticking with the devil i know - which is PGF. :evil

But for some people who are willing to invest the extra time and effort PzC might be a viable option.

Again, i am not discussing PzC2 which i never tried myself! :deal

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Re: [EPH] Play Against the AI - Two Design Approaches

Post by Lettos » 2024-01-19 20:00, Friday

Radoye wrote:
2024-01-19 14:45, Friday
But for some people who are willing to invest the extra time and effort PzC might be a viable option.

Again, i am not discussing PzC2 which i never tried myself! :deal
It's a strange situation with these two PzCs. PzC1 kind of became obsolete and unnecessary with the release of PzC2, about which there is a lot of talk and publicity. And at the same time there are a lot of complaints about PzC2 (graphics, system requirements, lack of AI).
Society is once again faced with a dilemma. Forum Panzer Corps(1) https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=121 somehow also quieted down...
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Re: PGF: "Ephemeral" Posts - Questions & Commentary

Post by Radoye » 2024-01-19 20:49, Friday

People like nice shiny new things... There was PG(1), PG2, PG3 (several different flavors), not to mention AG, PacGen, PeoGen and other derivatives of the basic SSI Panzer General idea. But time will tell what will survive in the long term. Sometimes the novelty wears off quickly and people come back to the old favorites.

In the case of SSI games PG1 and PG2 have shown most resilience, even receiving remakes (to which these forums are dedicated).

We will see what happens to Slitherine's PzC series...

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Re: Understanding the tool

Post by Lettos » 2024-02-11 11:22, Sunday

Creating scenarios requires the designer to have a clear understanding of the tool being used.
When questions arise: "Why did this unit go there and not here?", "Why did this attack produce these results and not something else?" must have clear answers.
There is absolutely no place for answers "because (someone) (once) came up with it", "it's just the way it is, it's random", "because we don't know what and how the AI decided". :dunno :huh

If there is a region of the unknowable in the PGF (tool) model, then a scenario that suddenly began to use elements from this region may be unpredictable for the scenario author himself. Unpredictable in the worst sense of the term, with the common diagnosis "I wanted it to be like this, but for some reason it doesn't work". :ihope :doh

Actually, this applies in general to all turn-based game models. I don't deal with Real-time models, I have enough to do in the turn-based case as it is. :notsure
Within the huge 5-stars section of game models, there are occasional conversations about porting created scenarios from one game to another.
Technically, it's possible. It's even possible not-technically, but by redrawing the content manually.
A huge task, yes... :shock

And here I will say that this huge task is only the first step to porting the scenario. The second part is realizing that AI in that other universe works exactly the same way. And that the mechanics of the game - the combat formulas - are also remained the same. So many nuances... :evil

And all of this is complicated immeasurably when the scenario designer, even in the universe he had in hand, didn't know how it worked internally. :o :dunno :lol

You want an example? Can someone tell me how a combat results in fight between a Submarine and a Destroyer Class is calculated? :evil
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[EPH] SSI's "Crowd"

Post by HexCode » 2024-02-11 19:10, Sunday

:howdy Lettos,

This isn't a particularly enjoyable post. However, as a definite latecomer to SSI's "World", you deserve to hear my opinions...

1) All wargame titles talked about in these Forums exhibit SSI's programming footprint.

2) SSI's "Crowd" essentially consists of forum posters. As for the rest, well, for the most part, they live on the dark side of the moon.

3) Occasionally, posters have opined that SSI "World" wargames are "beer & pretzels" ones. Their summary critique has been based on "grognard" perceptions of what historical conflict models should be all about.

4) Other than yourself, I know of not a single other poster who has ever bothered to pose detailed questions regarding AI Module programming. Most probably, you're the first one. Whether a wargame title's programmer might still be "around" (or not) would make no difference. It's extremely unlikely he would meaningfully respond. It's NOT in the hobby's DNA...

5) As far as I know, you and I are the only posters who have ever bothered to find out lots of details regarding the underlying play systems of a couple of closely related SSI "World" wargame titles. Once again, it's NOT in the hobby's DNA...

CONCLUSION

You and I do NOT really belong to the SSI "World" hobby. We're obvious exceptions. The irony is that it's our frequent posts in THIS forum which might give the impression of the Forum being active, even lively. For all practical purposes, the SSI "Crowd" has "departed" long time ago. Frankly, I don't miss those posters.
Last edited by HexCode on 2024-02-11 23:16, Sunday, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: [EPH] SSI's "Crowd"

Post by Lettos » 2024-02-11 20:08, Sunday

HexCode wrote:
2024-02-11 19:10, Sunday
:howdy Lettos,

This isn't a particularly enjoyable post. However, as a definite latecomer to SSI's "World", you deserve to hear my opinions...

1) All wargame titles talked about in these Forums exhibit SSI's programming footprint.

2) SSI's "Crowd" essentially consists of forum posters. As for the rest, well, for the most part, they live on the dark side of the moon.

3) Occasionally, posters have opined that SSI "World" wargames are "beer & pretzels" ones. Their summary critique has been based on "grognard" perceptions of what historical conflict models should be all about.

4) Other than yourself, I know of not a single poster who has ever bothered to pose detailed questions regarding AI Module programming. Most probably, you're the first one. Whether a wargame title's programmer might still be "around" (or not) would make absolutely no difference. It's extremely unlikely he will meaningfully respond. It's NOT in the hobby's DNA...

5) As far as I know, you and I are the only posters who have ever bothered to find out details regarding the underlying play systems of a couple of closely related SSI "World" wargame titles. Once again, it's NOT in the hobby's DNA...

CONCLUSION

You and I do NOT really belong to the SSI "World" hobby. We're exceptions. The irony is that it's our frequent posts in THIS forum which give the impression of the Forum being active, even lively. For all practical purposes, the SSI "Crowd" has departed long time ago. Frankly, I don't miss those posters.
Your post was enjoyable in every way! And there is no room for doubt here!

I will explain my attitude towards modding. I don't care if the universe is called SSI, Open General, Panzer Corps or - there will be something else, right? Right now I am comfortable in the SSI universe. I can work creatively, realize my ideas. It's perfectly clear that nothing lasts forever..... under the moon. PGF may get a big problem with the release of OS version 115th, but other games... could turn into what PGF is now. So what? I played with plastic soldiers at the age of 3. At age 6 I made my first board game. In 1989, I was trying to make a cross-tableau on how some troops affect others to make another game. Doesn't that remind you of Panzer General?
An IBM AT level computer back then cost more than my entire body if divided into organs. My monthly salary was 300-1000 times less than the cost of a personal computer with a 5MHz frequency and a 40 MB hard disk (does anyone now understand what MHz and MB are)?
So no Panzer General was created at that time.
What and who can I belong to in my hobby? A free Viking in the world of board games. Also, during the half-century I've lived, it turns out I'm a hell of a military history buff.
What will we remember at the moment we die? Fears? Commitments? Believe me, no. Only what we've seen, what we've created - and that's unlikely. There is no room for fears :)
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[EPH] Time to be Realistic

Post by HexCode » 2024-02-12 03:01, Monday

Intended Audience: # Lettos # & # Radoye #

In view of the serious as well as timely matters discussed in the previous two posts, I will no longer even be "pretending" that my posts might be of interest to some "unknown hobbyist". Nay ! From this point onward, my posts will be specifically addressed to either Lettos or THIS Forum's Moderator or both. Latter day realism isn't a bad thing... :2cents
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Re: PGF: "Ephemeral" Posts - Questions & Commentary

Post by Radoye » 2024-02-12 04:05, Monday

Hey, three amigos is still better than no amigos, eh? ;)

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[EPH] Quality, Quality...

Post by HexCode » 2024-02-12 05:18, Monday

:howdy Radoye
Radoye wrote:
2024-02-12 04:05, Monday
Hey, three amigos is still better than no amigos, eh? ;)
Yes ! I'll definitely take these three amigos over, say, a hundred "others". I know my math of course. BUT, when it comes to our hobby, quality trumps the numbers, any numbers. :deal :)
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Re: [EPH] Quality, Quality...

Post by Lettos » 2024-02-12 08:16, Monday

HexCode wrote:
2024-02-12 05:18, Monday
Radoye wrote:
2024-02-12 04:05, Monday
Hey, three amigos is still better than no amigos, eh? ;)
Yes ! I'll definitely take these three amigos over, say, a hundred "others". I know my math of course. BUT, when it comes to our hobby, quality trumps the numbers, any numbers. :deal :)
In fact, there was a very creative situation! Three directions of development, which do not exclude crossing each other's borders, and cross these borders with undoubted benefit for all three directions. :cool :howdy :clap
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[EPH] The Big, Big Picture

Post by HexCode » 2024-02-19 06:12, Monday

PGF-CDP is all the rage in THIS Forum these days. To this effect, comparisons or references to SSI and /or PGF's programmer are sort of inevitable. For my part,

Content Design & Play Platforms
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=616

contains virtually all my relevant observations and opinions. My nephew tells me I come across as too... fair. :) So be it ! :deal

Elsewhere in THIS forum...
Lettos wrote:
2024-02-19 19:21, Monday
If we assume that CDP is an invariant platform, a powerful theoretical basis for turn-based 5-stars games, then open tricks allow to create more interesting content even in primitive PGF. Design for the sake of true game effect is invariant!
I totally agree. Nevertheless, do expect dogged... resistance to the very notion of CDP potentially applicable to other wargame titles. It's not in the hobby's DNA, so to speak. :2cents

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Re: [EPH] The Big, Big Picture

Post by Lettos » 2024-02-19 20:29, Monday

HexCode wrote:
2024-02-19 06:12, Monday
I totally agree. Nevertheless, do expect dogged... resistance to the very notion of CDP potentially applicable to other wargame titles. It's not in the hobby's DNA, so to speak. :2cents
Yes, this is the normal process of evolution of earth civilization - first burn people at the bonfire for a thousand years for saying "the Earth is round", and then, completely without thinking about the essence of the process, start using satellite communication... :dunno :doh
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Re: [EPH] The Big, Big Picture

Post by Lettos » 2024-02-20 19:09, Tuesday

HexCode wrote:
2024-02-19 06:12, Monday
PGF-CDP is all the rage in THIS Forum these days. To this effect, comparisons or references to SSI and /or PGF's programmer are sort of inevitable. For my part,

Content Design & Play Platforms
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=616

contains virtually all my relevant observations and opinions. My nephew tells me I come across as too... fair. :) So be it ! :deal

Elsewhere in THIS forum...
Lettos wrote:
2024-02-19 19:21, Monday
If we assume that CDP is an invariant platform, a powerful theoretical basis for turn-based 5-stars games, then open tricks allow to create more interesting content even in primitive PGF. Design for the sake of true game effect is invariant!
I totally agree. Nevertheless, do expect dogged... resistance to the very notion of CDP potentially applicable to other wargame titles. It's not in the hobby's DNA, so to speak. :2cents
I'm going to be honest. If with all these tests and other developments some enthusiast comes to some forum of a very respected turn-based 5-stars game, then two options are possible:
1) Fantastic. A dialog with the developers will begin.
2) Real. Lifetime ban and VPN as a norm of life.
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Re: PGF: Panzer General - doing the same

Post by Lettos » 2024-02-20 19:28, Tuesday

During creative discussions about the course of the Wehrmacht's Eastern Campaign, this observation suddenly came to mind: why does the gloriously great Wehrmacht repeat its 1941 mistake twice in Panzer General - these are the Moscow'42 and Moscow'43 scenarios?

Is this a special strategy - to attack Moscow only in the fall? Here it is obvious that if it didn't work once, we should try something else! This is the Wehrmacht, not a bunch of stupid sheep!
No, SSI said. We don't have time to remake the scenarios, we have a game release - that's a more realistic answer!
--War in History Campaign (WiH)-- Aut non tentaris aut perfice.

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Re: PGF: Panzer General - doing the same

Post by Lettos » 2024-02-24 15:29, Saturday

Lettos wrote:
2024-02-20 19:28, Tuesday
During creative discussions about the course of the Wehrmacht's Eastern Campaign, this observation suddenly came to mind: why does the gloriously great Wehrmacht repeat its 1941 mistake twice in Panzer General - these are the Moscow'42 and Moscow'43 scenarios?

Is this a special strategy - to attack Moscow only in the fall? Here it is obvious that if it didn't work once, we should try something else! This is the Wehrmacht, not a bunch of stupid sheep!
No, SSI said. We don't have time to remake the scenarios, we have a game release - that's a more realistic answer!
The vanilla Panzer General/PGF campaign has three scenarios that utilize winter conditions (Snowing+Frozen). I don't consider Moscow'42 and Moscow'43 scenarios to be original scenarios - they are mindless remakes of Moscow'41.

Let's take a look at the weather in Ardennes'44, Kharkov'43 and Moscow'41 and compare it to the real thing.
1) Ardennes.
There's snow on the photostories. But there is very little of it on most of the photos. There is more snow on some photos. It was cold, but some small minuses are also typical for the second half of autumn on the Eastern Front, when mostly everywhere is impenetrable mud. The cold in the Ardennes does not give grounds to claim that Wehrmacht tanks could suddenly cross the Maas River on ice. Fantastic.

2) Kharkov.
Scenario starts on either the 11th (according to the script description) or the 21st of February (according to pgscn) and lasts 22 days. In the story, the second date looks true. Photos of mid-February are already muddy. In diaries and memoirs it is already written about February 26th that it is damp and foggy. On March 1st it is already thawing. No more snow than in the Ardennes.

3) Moscow'41.
Scenario begins on October 2nd. 3 days per turn, 22 turns. The date of the last turn is December 4th.
There are two periods of Snow and Frost in the Scenario:
On the 8th-10th turns, Oct. 23-29, and on the 15-18th turns, Nov. 13-22. Panzers on the frozen Moscow River break through to the rear of the Red Army.
No, it didn't really happen because it was freezing cold! That's what the generals say!
But both generals and soldiers note the fact that with the onset of a little frost, the mud froze and it became much easier to move around! (Dry conditions in the PGF). The fact that the frost created a problem because of the lack of warm winter clothing is no longer relevant to the weather types and surface conditions in the PGF model.

Let's check it out!

In fact, it was like this:

Snowed in the first decade of November. Then snow was melted. Snowed again. The snow cover from November 10 to December 10 was about 5-10 cm.

Air temperature (for those who use the Fahrenheit scale - water starts to freeze at 0 degrees Celsius)
From October 10 to October 20 - minus 2-3 degrees Celsius.
From October 20 to November 10 there were literally a few days with temperatures minus 5. All other days were plus temperature, up to plus 5 degrees!
Since November 10th - several days with temperatures as low as minus 15 degrees Celsius. Then the frost remains at -5 to -8 degrees, with no thaws.
And only on December 8th was the first hard frost of minus 20 Celsius degrees (= minus 4 F).

But the scenario ends on December 4th! And if you're going to use the winter freezing weather in the scenario as bridges over rivers everywhere, it would be logical to do it not on November 13-22, but starting somewhere around November 25th... by the way, the PGF weather model partially allows this (on its own weird terms!).

To summarize, my opinion is this:

either make scenarios on the Eastern Front in the Moscow-Leningrad area in the real cold winter months (January and February), or the conditions of "Snowing-Frozen" for the moment are easily and truthfully replaced by Rainy-Muddy, and turn out to be completely free for other modder's tasks.

Graph from the archive of observations of weather conditions in 1941. The name Petrovsko-Razumovskoye is now a suburb of Moscow.

Image
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Re: PGF: new Weather type

Post by Lettos » 2024-02-24 16:14, Saturday

Changing Snowing and Frozen to Storm and ... + nothing has changed on the ground.

The idea is that we can create a weather type that comes in handy for use in aero-naval scenarios.
Name "Snowing" can be replaced by ... something like BadWthr. This means wind + clouds + some kind of rain or fog, or sandy storm, which prevents combat in the air and limits spotting both in the air, on land, and at sea.

But here's when it comes to the stage of changing the land surface on Frozen, nothing changes on the ground. The surface doesn't change to Frozen (that is, the surface is actually supposed to become kind of Muddy after a storm). But this storm didn't bring that change for land units.
But at sea it means a real storm. Reduced MVT of ships. Given that two types of MVT can be created, larger ships get a smaller penalty, and a submarine in an underwater position has no penalty at all.
Name "Frozen" - change to "Storm" ?

New tiles don't need to be drawn at all.
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Re: PGF: new Weather type

Post by Lettos » 2024-02-25 05:54, Sunday

Lettos wrote:
2024-02-24 16:14, Saturday
Changing Snowing and Frozen to Storm and ... + nothing has changed on the ground.

The idea is that we can create a weather type that comes in handy for use in aero-naval scenarios.
Name "Snowing" can be replaced by ... something like BadWthr. This means wind + clouds + some kind of rain or fog, or sandy storm, which prevents combat in the air and limits spotting both in the air, on land, and at sea.

But here's when it comes to the stage of changing the land surface on Frozen, nothing changes on the ground. The surface doesn't change to Frozen (that is, the surface is actually supposed to become kind of Muddy after a storm). But this storm didn't bring that change for land units.
But at sea it means a real storm. Reduced MVT of ships. Given that two types of MVT can be created, larger ships get a smaller penalty, and a submarine in an underwater position has no penalty at all.
Name "Frozen" - change to "Storm" ?

New tiles don't need to be drawn at all.
It is clear that MVT Types for all movement types can be easily adjusted. The correction is that for land MVT types the movement during DRY conditions and the movement during STORM become the same. Or almost the same.
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Re: PGF: Victory conditions

Post by Lettos » 2024-02-25 18:10, Sunday

HexCode wrote 3 years ago:
[OPN] Glory & Precision: Peaceful... Coexistence ?
viewtopic.php?f=95&t=503#p8467
Under PGF, OC parlance (if any) naturally resides either in files *.PGSCN or in files *.PGBRF, depending on whether the Play Mode is Standalone Scenario or Campaign, respectively. Most importantly, these files sport plain text formats which allow for easy editing.
Friends, I need some help, some advice!

I've tried setting quite difficult win conditions in the pgscn file, using FPGE, and without it.
I can tell from the negative results that FPGE handles win conditions different from the simple "All VH" so incorrectly that it cannot be relied upon. For example, in the pgscn file after saving, I see the two sides as ALLIED.
If I edit the pgscn file, does the whole job end there? Doesn't the new win condition information need to be put into the .STM files? In tests, I haven't seen any difference in AI behavior from me putting something new about winning into pgscn.
I can see that the victory conditions written in pgcam are more prioritized by the engine. And within the campaign everything works correctly. But within a single scenario - according to my current observations, it doesn't work. The brutal solution for Standalone scenario is to make a campaign with one scenario.
But that's part of the problem. By changing the victory conditions for the AI, I was trying to activate its actions in a certain direction. It didn't work. Did I do something wrong, or does the AI have an empty walnut shell in this part of the brain, in which it was supposed to put some valuable content someday?
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Re: PGF: Weather zone "0"

Post by Lettos » 2024-02-25 18:28, Sunday

Do I understand correctly that there is never any chance of precipitation/overcast in WZ0? This zone always has Clear/ weather and Dry surface conditions?
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Re: PGF: Weather zone "0"

Post by HexCode » 2024-02-25 20:38, Sunday

Lettos wrote:
2024-02-25 18:28, Sunday
Do I understand correctly that there is never any chance of precipitation/overcast in WZ0? This zone always has Clear/ weather and Dry surface conditions?
That's my understanding. I speculate SSI developed their core model under "ideal" conditions first. From a programming standpoint, they "had" to deal with optional features like Fog of War, Fuel / Ammo and Weather Conditions later in the development cycle; hence, the lack of serious testing... :2cents

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Re: PGF: Weather zone "0"

Post by Lettos » 2024-02-26 06:24, Monday

HexCode wrote:
2024-02-25 20:38, Sunday
Lettos wrote:
2024-02-25 18:28, Sunday
Do I understand correctly that there is never any chance of precipitation/overcast in WZ0? This zone always has Clear/ weather and Dry surface conditions?
That's my understanding. I speculate SSI developed their core model under "ideal" conditions first. From a programming standpoint, they "had" to deal with optional features like Fog of War, Fuel / Ammo and Weather Conditions later in the development cycle; hence, the lack of serious testing... :2cents
Tested in a scenario with duration 99 turns. Weather is always CLEAR.
--War in History Campaign (WiH)-- Aut non tentaris aut perfice.

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