Open Mike

[HexCode]

@ Csaba

... the most important reason was not to discourage the potential forum members/visitors who are used to reading friendly / less sharp comments ...

AND

... there is no guarantee that millennials (and the coming generations) would survive a single day w/o internet ...

Ok, then, from the Internet...

Writing for The New York Times in 2015, journalist Judith Shulevitz distinguished between meetings where participants mutually consent to provide a safe space, and attempts to make entire dormitories or student newspapers safe spaces. According to Shulevitz, the latter is a logical consequence of the former: "Once you designate some spaces as safe, you imply that the rest are unsafe. It follows that they should be made safer." She gave the example of a safe space at Brown University, when libertarian Wendy McElroy, who was known for criticizing the term "rape culture" was invited to give a speech: "The safe space ... was intended to give people who might find comments 'troubling' or 'triggering,' a place to recuperate. The room was equipped with cookies, coloring books, bubbles, Play-Doh, calming music, pillows, blankets and a video of frolicking puppies, as well as students and staff members trained to deal with trauma."

Interaction shock absorbers ? Bumpers ? Condoms ? You decide... Bumping cars and joy rides used to be such fun...

[lvjtn]

According to Shulevitz, the latter is a logical consequence of the former: "Once you designate some spaces as safe, you imply that the rest are unsafe. It follows that they should be made safer."

dictatorships usually are built for the "greater good". (generic) they won't make you shut up and annul the free speach, (generic) they will just "expand the safe spaces" (except for the enemies of the party... white, heterosexual, cisgender, male oppressors, who don't need a safe space, they are the enemy of the revolution which will make the entire world a safer space)

(btw. maybe that's why i hate commies more than nazis. nazis are honest guys, and they say "we will kill everybody who isn't like us". commies (+affiliates like greens, new left, etc.) always say "we make the world better, nicer, friendlier place", so more naive people support them)

+1 in 1950s, the communist block "fought for peace". seriously "peace fight" or "fight for peace" was a real, accepted term, not a schizoid oxymoron. it seems they just replaced "peace" by "safe place", everything else is the very same old bolshevism

+2 and i really stop it, i promise so what's interesting for me: the leftists from the very beginning, when this term was born in 1792 for the jacobins, fought "against the privileges". they never fought for giving the same rights for the "deprivated", "opressed", etc. masses, they always want(ed) to destroy the extra "rights" of the "opressors". beside the very basic instinct of jealosy what most people can naturally share, it means: "we can't give you anything, but we can take away those things what you are envy for from the people whom you hate"

[HexCode]

@ Csaba

The distinction you drew comparing Nazis to Communists revolves around the issue of societal hypocrisy. The more far reaching a society's professed ambitions are, the more hypocritical public discourse becomes. It has been suggested that Socialism is a degenerate form of Christianity. No matter, societies obsessed with universalist expansionism (e.g., "the left") invariably need some universalist dogma to underpin the "requisite" rhetoric. The underpinning dogma can be religious or secular; BUT it has to be universalist.

In the same vein, I consider contemporary democracy to be a degenerate form of republicanism. If so, republicanism cannot ultimately survive democracy's universalist "projects". In other words, societal expansionism and republicanism are destined to being extremely uncomfortable bedfellows, to say the least.

As for envy, well, in... polite academic circles it's about relative deprivation. Now, the notion of equality in contemporary, mass democracies is like a bulldozer. Specifically, the overriding objective is to render as many people as possible "equal" in every conceivable respect, and then some. To this effect, the Ancient Hellenic story of Procrustes is quite instructive; especially the part where the feet / legs were chopped off so that the victim's body height would exactly "conform" to the iron bed's length... Equality through... subtraction !

[lvjtn]

It has been suggested that Socialism is a degenerate form of Christianity.

well, that's not suprising, every "european" ideology has roots in christianity, e.g. classical (19th century) liberalism: "equality before the law" -> your behavior and not your status matters on the judgment day; even the nazism referred to the christian terminology, tough in a grotesque way, i admit. see: "tausendjähriges reich" -> Christ's millenial reign. and the best example for the christian roots of bolshevism is the american puritanism, the complete intolerance toward the heretics, focusing only for the shining future, at all cost. see the salem witch trial vs. the stalinist "trials". of course, i don't say the christianity is responsible for any derivated ideology, i just say the "degenerate form" is a good term to describe several ideologies

As for envy, well, in... polite academic circles it's about relative deprivation.

yep, you are right still, it's interesting form me the proposed solution of the leftist movements for the "deprrivated"
is usually "take away their privileges" and not "share their rights with everybody"

[Ale]

i'm saying this with dose of humor - but seriousness as well - if we imagine democratic practice in my example (which wasn't political at all, just historical interest) in mid XIV century we could get situation like king (and advisors) decide to ban opening of graves and "vampire hunt" and then people demand referendum... On said referendum king's opinion is overruled and people demand that graves should be opened and hearts stabbed if "need be"... while plague rages around.

so educated authoritarian rule is in some cases more beneficial to society than democratic decision however, it doesn't mean that people didn't have right to demand lower feudal taxes, better status protection and rights if they didn't know much about biology and medicine ;

[lvjtn]

so educated authoritarian rule is in some cases more beneficial to society than democratic decision

democratic decision is bad, no question, which doesn't mean anything else wouldn't be worse

personally i think the most important social scientist is a fictional character: miss Marple, she has (in present, as an immortal fictional character) a very old fashioned victorian (semi-puritan christian) belief: human beings are terrible creatures ready to commit any crimes: sometimes only stealing a postage stamp, sometimes killing. this belief is based on the very christian concept of the original sin. even the newborn babies are sinners, because of opposing the god's will and betraying the paradise. then how the hell you could trust any human creature? educated or not, they never worked, work or will work for the community, only for their own interests. democracy (or republicanism) has a very limited advantage: at least the elected persons should pretend to be interested in their reputation. they still were/are/will be criminals* but at least there is a very limited control about their activities. "educated authoritarian rule" was, is and will be immediately tyrannism**

* e.g. now Donald Trump is accused to use his power to bribe a foreign leader in order to enchance his chanche for reelection. is he guilty in this charge? definitely. but for the heaven's sake: every us persident has done exactly the same thing for two centuries. the existence of the usa is based on bribing, blackmailing or invading the less powerful nations. u.s. politicians all are criminals. we are speaking about a country which is famous for that corruption is 100% legal and called lobbying

** "educated authoritarian rule" that's actually the essence of communism: the proletarian dictatorship of the stupid, ignorant, alcoholic factory workers and peasant led by the "chosen ones": the educated (at least in the dialectical materialism) members of the party, the avantgarde, the lightning torches of the revolution

[Ale]

dictatorship of the stupid, ignorant, alcoholic factory workers and peasant led by the "chosen ones"

wow, Csaba sounds like you never had trouble in life, categorizing so roughly whole class of people... one night on Budas streets might change such perspective. (I admit I never slept on Budas streets myself) Problem is that not everyone had same chance in life, in the past/history even more so and working was only chance of survival. Actually many educated (many just use cocain not alcohol now)) of today in many societies were descendants of such peasants and workers. And actually social protection, laws and similar enabled them to be so today...

point 2, I think you realize yourself that comparing super elite society of feudal top (my example) with communist rule is like "night and day", imo. missing the point. Feudal elites were never populistic, nor they felt need to be so as nobody controlled their actions by popular vote... communism is all about populism, though elites do form and popular opinion transforms in leader's Still populistic.

and lastly - I am all for examples, dislike philosophy without substance, and must at least give plus to you for finally giving a lot examples to talk about (Trump, communism, workers) I guess non-alcoholic Islam is way to go just joking here and caricature your words, non expert on religion myself hence nothing of substance to your many lines about that. Might be true from my knowledge, might not... honestly never heard Hitler and Christ being compared, as joke. just had small intervention posting above, not really taking part in discussion

[lvjtn]

dictatorship of the stupid, ignorant, alcoholic factory workers and peasant led by the "chosen ones"

wow, Csaba sounds like you never had trouble in life, categorizing so roughly whole class of people...

i think you missed something, that's not my opinion, that's the official marxist-leninist opinion, what i wrongly thought is well known for everybody, my bad

i admit, i read the manifesto of the communist movement, which described the working class in this way and explained that's why the revolutionair avantgarde, the chosen members of the party should lead the fight for communism (aka "the promised land, heaven"). of course, marx and engels blamed the bourgeous class for keeping the working class in this mental misery, but still, that's the official communist "holy bible" which described the working class like i quoted and the "founding fathers" of communism explaned why the "enlighted tyranny" is necessary to liberate the scum

+1 you shouldn't believe me that nazism intentionally used lots of grotesque christian references, but it's true. yes, it's not comparing hitler to christ, it's just hitler and their followers intentionally reinterpreted some christian believes, allures, etc. of course, it was like edmund schiele would have painted the mona lisa. grotesque as i wrote. idk what was the idea behind it: making christianity a bad joke (after all, it's something too "jewish" for a nazi) or they tried to use it as theatrical accessories what were familiar to european people

[HexCode]

@ Csaba

A couple of paragraphs on societal envy and relative deprivation...

There's a time-honored asymmetry in how individuals react to actual losses in wealth, social status and / or power as opposed to hopes and dreams of improvement in such areas never materializing. The former feel the attendant disappointment and pain much more than the latter. If so, the "haves" are expected to mount a much more forceful "defense" compared to the "attack" intensity of the "have-nots".

Civil liberties are a special case. In my opinion, they're central to any republicanism worth its salt. Now, who envies individuals who enjoy and take advantage of civil liberties ? It's not the "masses". Oi poloi are mostly fixated on goods and practical services they either enjoy or simply wish to somehow acquire. On the other hand, unless the dominant elites are truly republican, they will no doubt attempt to curtail, even snuff out, some or all civil liberties. BUT, this is not because of envy; rather, it's a rational response of groups of individuals who not only desire to avoid "losses" but also aim at appropriating additional "gains". It's only certain individuals who consider themselves socio-politically "engaged" that are hostile to civil liberties and individuals who visibly enjoy them (esp. free speech). More often than not, such individuals place themselves on self-constructed, moral pedestals which can be quite fragile, if challenged. At the same time, they secretly desire to do exactly to others what challengers may "dare" do to them. It's just that they are too "chicken" to do so... In other words, self righteousness and cowardice decidedly circumscribe "relative deprivation" regarding civil liberties.

[Ale]

just for the record, I do think more favourably of workers and food producers than footballers, models or any other "personalities" TV bombards us with pardoxally following some sport events in the same time and "knowing" some pornstars (not personal lives)

secondly, I i'll just stick to my words not falling into traps of people like Csaba and Hex to talk about totalitarian systems and all frustrations often used by (in cases) undemocratic persons to gain support for their nationalistic/xenophobic causes predating totalitarian rule (not talking about Csaba & Hex, not knowing either of them). I gained nothing from communism for example but my mother's mother, who died this year at round 90 which is decent lifetime and natural, originating from today SW Croatia had a lot of reasons to be grateful to communists (I guess) as she was able to live most of life and die in warm apartment and "in civilization", something couple of centuries of Habsburg rule nor Serbian king (ruling Yugosarmatia before ww2) were not able to secure nor lift her family from poverty and backwardness... mentioning Serbian kings of Yugosarmatia, I could play on card of anti-communism and oportunistic tendencies and say they banned and persecuted communists while they were winning (or making good election results) in many cities with industry in the 1920s in places lake Slovenia and Croatia.... but I care only about objective and factual look at history.... In that sense - own words - I think my example that not every good social decision must be voted and populary approved is clear. But some might say (because I gave example of Serb medieval king) it is all just communism, Turks (and later Habsburgs) had right to conquer and ruogh-play them because they were communists (and pan-Slavic) even in the middle ages this is joke

also, one thing I missed before is that early communist dogma (Marx) actually (roughly said) considered peasants more of "class enemies of workers than equal to them in fight against capitalism". I remember this even though I never read Marx and Engeles works (for historical interest, only second mentioned Serbs in few of his works and not in way some represent saying "some other south Slavs steal from Serbs etc. etc") nor had any sort of marxsist education I hope my posts in whole thread are both informative and fun, nothing pretentious and not interested to talk politics in details with people from different backgrounds and experiences (history and facts always with anyone) Again, dispite my linguistical style I am not unfriendly nor emotional towards both Csaba nor Hex

[lvjtn]

my mother's mother (...) had a lot of reasons to be grateful to communists

that's a very interesting issue: yes, lots of people can/could be grateful for any regime changes, and even the most totalitarian dictatorships tried to catch some popularity, or at least combined the stick and the carrot and favored a few people who could be grateful for them. maybe i'd be banned forever from this site saying this: but even the german people can be grateful for hitler because his regime built an excellent autobahn network and gave a huge injection to the german science and industry. (e.g. would porsche make such great cars w/o working on tiger tank engines before?). but besides these "good things", both the international and national socialism are responsible for the death of tens of millions and destruction of europe between 1917-1991, so i don't think that some people being grateful for these regimes would make these regimes less terrible

imo the most shocking and rarely quoted book about the totalitarian regimes is Hannah Arendt's book about the eichmann trial, in which she described the "banality of evil". those people who did terrible things like operating a death camp, gulag, commiting war crimes, etc. are rarely the classic "evil" as the medieval christian books and paintings showed. they are average people. they can be friendly, nice, etc. people loving their kids and puppies. they are just ready to do terrible things. there are two conclusions. i mentioned both of them, several times: a) dictatorships aren't 100% evil, b) any people can be a terrible monster under certain circumstances

none of these conclusions are popular, and both are on the edges of the free speech tolerated nowadays, because people like to think the opposite: "we are the good guys, and those people who did that terrible things were monsters, unlike us". but they are wrong, unfortunately, and Hannah Arendt is right

[Ale]

...not to mention I also mentioned Catalans in king's army, bad move by me as they are well known commies


aanyway, respect any work for game but I'd really like to see Mexicans and miladies talking, maybe Spaniards and Italians if they can take a joke. (French speak too much, Germans can't speak (Nemci = meaning can't speak), eastern Europe predictable, English hardly wait to get rid of all above)) This subject was nice, as previous - some points serious some not so, something for everybody - until the next one...

[HexCode]

... maybe i'd be banned forever from this site ...

Rather unlikely... Unless, of course, Frau von der Leyen were to declare herself "Super-Red Administrator" and lodge the well known flag right there into the Pub's very logo.

... imo the most shocking and rarely quoted book about totalitarian regimes is Hannah Arendt's book about the Eichmann trial, in which she described the "banality of evil".

Yes, "Origins of Totalitarianism" as well. The "banality of evil" has found fertile ground what with ever increasing bureaucratization and technological change favoring conformist, societal tendencies.

By the way, Hannah Arendt's ideas and conclusions were much concurred with by many in the Western intelligentsia prior to the collapse of the USSR. Not so much in more recent times... I wonder why ?

[HexCode]

A good ol' jukebox selection follows, courtesy of Father Time's Jurassic archives......

... Ten years prior to Leonidas' heroic deeds against the invading Persians and eventual death, the Athenian runner Pheidippides was sent to Sparta to urgently request help as a hostile Persian army had landed at Marathon (near Athens), Greece. Legend has it that this ancient... Road Runner ran about 240 km in two days. It is unknown whether Pheidippides was fond of making "beep beep" sounds while running... Legend also has it that the ancient god Pan assisted Pheidippides a great deal along the way.

Pan has been depicted as half goat (from the torso down) and half man (from the torso up). So, the goat part had to be able to keep up with the runner or was it the other way around ? In any case, I wonder why it is that goats are not allowed to participate in Olympic events... A plausible explanation might be that Olympic events should not be allowed to degenerate into fostering and showcasing... herd phenomena !

[HexCode]

A good ol' jukebox selection follows, courtesy of Father Time's Jurassic archives......

From the Internet ==>

A town of merry Christmas-lovers called the Whos goes about their annual holiday preparations. Up in the caves north of their town, though, lives a character named the Grinch who absolutely hates Christmas. We're not really sure why (who could hate presents and feasting ?), but hey, hatred never really had a good explanation.

At any rate, the Grinch has had enough of this Christmas business and he sets about trying to ruin it for the Whos. He sneaks into all of their homes and steals their Christmas decorations, meals, and gifts — an act that is both illegal and extremely Grinchy. He then takes his loot up to Mt. Crumpit and prepares to throw it off the side of the mountain. Harsh.

At the last minute, though, the Grinch hears a sound coming from Who-ville — the sound of all the Whos joining together in song despite the fact that their homes have been ransacked and their gifts are all gone. Finally, the Grinch feels a twinge of remorse (and maybe even Christmas spirit ?), so he brings back all the things that he stole. He arrives in time to join in on the Christmas festivities.

If I were the Grinch, I would do two things:

a) I would come down from Mt. Crumpit and join the Whos in song.

b) I would keep the gifts hidden in a cave. During the year, I would selectively give such presents to kids whose families have suffered misfortunes such as death, divorce and destruction (the abominable 3 Ds).

Oh, before I forget, I would also throw all seductive / righteous rabble-rousers off the side of Mt. Crumpit...

[Ale]

today for fun, me "urbi et orbi" .... already had post about exonyms and alternative names back at JP, not about that. Just about my post and word "Nemci" for "Germans" in use in various places, like mine or Csaba's. I do think it is a bit obsolete and un-PC, being official not folk slang as well. Looking for alternatives we could use German word "Schwabs" but many people - like English - think it is offensive as it sounds tough (while it is not basically) plus people from northern Germany for example wouldn't like to be called that, so it is out of question. "Germani" is not an option as is already used since our Roman times...

talking about exonyms i find words like "Servia" somehow offensive (it dates to Greek troubles with "B" and "V", and has nothing to do with endonym ever in use) in modern world, although its root predating Latin use is "protector/guardian"..... take post with smile and think about it when time for reforms comes lingustics are fun and of interest both for ancient history lovers and in modern times, taken carefully. enjoy holydays.

[Ale]

so... a bit of extension today. Just for historical interest and without claiming that any theoretically considered way of thoughts is absolute truth. (more believe in deeper investigation than truths as absolute category)

how can lingistical and historical (sources) research be helpful to one another... on my example if we are to trace "Serb" name form "on map" in different areas and eras, and then - helped by linguistcal knowledge - use root (Indo-European) of a word i.e. "on watch, guard" and similar we can 3 interesting examples in historical line. One ancient map (i.e. Greeco-Roman words) placing them "on border" between Sarmatian and Scythian people, second in relation to roughly early middle ages placing them "on border" with Slavic and Germanic tribes i.e. political entities nad third from Byzant and Italy placing them "on border" of Byzantine empire.... conclusion and logical way of thinking is that it might be possible that root of tribal name is indeed mentioned Indo-European in form of "watching, protecting" (border) and kept itself in traditions of tribe members. But - without very solid proofs - just solid theory, not a bet.

trying to be interesting, helpful (something comical) to older history, using own words and conclusions. Do not throw tomatoes, kids enjoy "open mike" and think freely.

[Ale]

still having fun, but finishing for today and maybe for a while.... also, political science could add to theory i.e. border/land and "protectionism" in mentality. Without borders (and protection) we can't be.... let it be. When gone, sense will remain in humanity that will never repay us but will never forget us ...but, seriously I do not object that theory as possible.

did you know - trivia - that Pliny the Elder (one connected with possible mentions of Serb name) died durin the famous Vesuvius eruption, my other interest. Never connected it in my head, maybe god Vulcan (great respect) tried to hide traces

[HexCode]

A good ol' jukebox selection follows, courtesy of Father Time's Jurassic archives......

Many, many moons ago, SPI ruled the roost in the area of tabletop historical wargaming. Invariably, SPI's games came with a huge map, plenty of unit counters and, most importantly, a very, very thick playrule manual...

A bunch of players ... decided to play "Atlantic Wall" (D-Day stuff) in teams. One team member would handle air operations, another one would handle supply and so on.

A few turns into the game, complaints started to be voiced. Whenever a combat outcome would not fit in with a player's preconceptions or preferences, calls for modifications or outright expansion of the "offending" rule(s) would surface. The usual complaint was that the rules applying to such situations were manifestly "historically unrealistic". Soon, the fun of playing the game completely evaporated. Instead, teams were set up to significantly rewrite the rulebook...

Now, SPI's manual was about 70 pages long (in small print) to begin with. The rewrite pushed things to the equivalent of about 120 pages...

At this point, the effort was coming to a grinding halt. Players went their own merry way by gradually walking away from the "project" under various excuses. As a gaming experience, "Atlantic Wall" proved to be an abject failure. As for the rewrite effort, well, the Tower of Babel comes to mind...

[Ale]

Language per se is interesting topic... not going into details and science (never looked deep unlike i did with historical sources) but will give one interesting (maybe fun) line I tell to some Russians sometimes if language is mentioned... well I say our language is such that we both have too many Bulgarian words (and Macedonian Slavic in general) in both of them, not genuine as "ours" Who understand, understand as that is joke and nothing against Bulgaro-Macedonian as such.... hence, in previous example i tried to explain more tribal acpect (of only Serbs) not cultural as - with most of us today - cultures had other influences on people and groups...

... not time not position now but maybe in quiet moment I'll share more about that (to me interesting) border-guard mentality and service and how it transformed in moments of new realities and lack of "employer" ; something I wrote and thought before (in own language) combining it with history - just maybe and if I translate it i.e. find interesting to type.... people must understand that we are just philosophers here (me, Csaba & Hex) and no need to be scared or opposed if something makes them "out of comfortability or against things they are used to get in schools or society"

[lvjtn]

As a gaming experience, "Atlantic Wall" proved to be an abject failure. As for the rewrite effort, well, the Tower of Babel comes to mind...

these walls and towers are interesting: chinese empire built the great wall, but the mongols conquered them, berlin wall is only a said memento now, maginot line was easily bypassed by Rommel and Guderian. moroccan migrants regularly break through the double fences in ceuta, the wall around qualkiliya is daubed by Banksy, so idk what mr. Trump and mr. Orbán think about their weak tries...

have a nice days in 2019

[HexCode]

@ Csaba

These days, talk about building walls has very little to do with achievable physical separation per se. Rather, it has proven to be both politically expedient and reasonably effective. The forces behind contemporary globalization dislike not just walls but any talk of separation, whether physical or symbolic.

It has been said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Globalization's logic has it that people all over the world will want to imitate the globalized winners, eventually themselves becoming part and parcel of some grand globalized expanse.

An important "detail" is whether imitators become globalized in situ or through migration. In both Hungary and the US, the political talk (and some related actions) regarding walls revolve around the issue of "undesirable migration".

For me, the key question is this. Why is it that certain people want to imitate others while other people are proud of their perceived uniqueness and refrain from imitating ? I do realize that this question entails many dimensions and nuances. By the way, it's quite conceivable that people who consider themselves unique and don't imitate others may dislike others imitating them... Clearly, such admittedly strange birds don't give a fig about others... flattering / admiring them !

[Ale]

...but not now, if ever, maybe in 2020 i really write few lines about what i found about that, mentioned above... looking at Csaba immediately remember another linguistic example i.e. word "husar, gusar" whose root was some argument and it is most likely that it is due to distortion of our voice "G" in eastern Europe as "H" - but origin of word is again not of migrants Serbs nor Magyars - it is Latin "cursarius" ) practices in battle were Roman, Byzantine and then later Serb and further...

about origin just to add to all, as I once was asked but some person from Pakistan but it could be any foreigner, why that theory was never reasearched in our country and some Poles, Russians or Ukraininas wrote more about possible Serb origin - the answer in short is that after being "back from dead" in XIX c Serbia wasn't really booming scientifical centre and beside that political pragmatism in that times and later wasn't favorable (as looking for Slavic ties was priority)... other reason is obvious in whole Europe later and that is Germans i.e. nazi-Germans doing "similar" reaserches and looking at Indian subcontinent so it was "taboo" ) ... nobody should be scared and connect those two things and even less be forced into "Sarmatism" or any racism if any evidence about ancient Serb origin is even found nor it changes modern history.

[Ale]

I mean, I am Sarmatian and I am scary. I have Sarmatian eyes, figure and height of Sarmatian, i have no hair and all... even few Alani sculls in my bag... but don't be scared - I'm a good Sarmatian




looks like effective comedy line to end this year with "mike". happy new year to my readers esp. miladies...

[HexCode]

A good ol' jukebox selection follows, courtesy of Father Time's Jurassic archives......

The Adventurers (1970), directed by Lewis Gilbert ==>

President Rojo: A bandit by himself is nothing but a bandit. A bandit and a lawyer... that's a revolution.

1) A coder by himself is nothing but a... programmer. A programmer and a technical editor... that's a software release.

2) A software licence purchaser by himself is nothing but a... consumer. A consumer and a carefully written instruction manual... that's, well, very rare !

3) A wargame player by himself is nothing but a... A wargame player and a really strong and vindictive AI... that's a bloody massacre !

4) A forum lurker by himself is nothing but a... ghost. A ghost and a poster... that's a glimmer of hope.

5) A reclusive writer by himself is nothing but an... unknown. An unknown writer and a motorcycle... that's a ghost... rider !

6) A lonesome young man is nothing but a... sorry sight. A young man and a... technically proficient girl... that's what life should be all about. Unfortunately etc...

[Ale]

even better for year end - and maybe topic end (really depends later of inspiration)....

first, I often bash it but wikipedia article about Sarmatians (for fairness) must say includes (until someone censor it) list of most famous Sarmato tribes and it includes "Serboi". (or Plinius' dialect "Serbii") I'm fair when there's a reason wiki and that is something not in book, but can't be edited in book too..... When one reads it aloud few times it sounds more like "Polaki" or "Saxen" indeed, but similar enough to us to to be possible .... that with nazism or any alternative history has nothing to do, more (maybe hidden) part of ancient and addition to it )

but took "mike" for even more important reason... The real reason why we are here after such long journey and all hardship are our miladies through ages - and by our I mean not only our Sarmatian-Iranic, but also Russian, Polish, Czech, German, Latin-Roman(t)ic-Italian, Greek.... and all others (maybe even African or far Asian we set free from Byzantine prisons)) that joined us in this adventure. Hats of to all of you miladies and bravery to be around through millenias Seriously said.


but now maybe it is time to ask Romans if we did our duty and protected them enough so we can leave this great civilization of theirs and go back to our homeland... not because we don't like them just because better economical situation in our homeland - homeland be Saxony, Caucasus or Pakistan as you wish fellow Sarmatians, better econimically regardless

[lvjtn]

Free Associations...
good ol' jukebox selection follows...

The Adventurers (1970), directed by Lewis Gilbert ==>
A consumer and a carefully written instruction manual... that's, well, very rare !

is it an indirect ? but so true

@ Ale: in hungary, there are people (imo: idiots) who always restart the debate about the genetical "origin" of the "hungarians" (e.g. are we uralians and/or turks and/or inner-asians, etc.). a few (max. 10) years ago someone made a genetical map based on the carpathian basin, and the result was shocking for most nationalists: hungarians and slovakians are genetically closer than several other possible comparisions, meaning that lots of "true slovakians/hungarians" have "hungarian/slovakian blood" in their veins

(btw. and it's really an anecdote only: the most noisy hungarian nationalists in hungary often have german or slovakian ancestors. for me, who is 14/16 ethnic hungarian, nationalism is only the over-compensation of the newly assimilated persons)

happy new year to you!

[HexCode]

@ Csaba

Happy New Year !

When that good ol' jukebox was being... programmed software upgrades and their documentation were being discussed at a general level. However, if the shoe fits, well, not exactly...

One can't veer off into off-topic territory "around here", can he ? So, here I go.

In my opinion, PGF can serve as an introductory stepping stone (i.e., alpha) to a person eventually ending up trying out OG (i.e., omega). Speaking about OG, what about its documentation ? Well, my position on this issue is rather well known; namely, if and when OG ever makes it to Version 1.0 status, "we" can talk again...

[Ale]

Happy new year to all readers esp. you ).... good luck to Csaba and Para etc. specifically with tries to "revive" CC subforum. Opinion on the subject is "neutral", maybe waiting more or for new faces eventually but not great tragedy if it doesn't happen, hope you have fun even if less than 5 of you, whatever you decide, nothing smart to say....

Times change - checking comp & phone on 1.1. (and realitively early hour too) while lets say 20 years ago internet was unreliable and even more slow (like passing years in Roman service) and "phone"... don't even remember if i used it and surely was some "brick".

more like personal reminder for other days where I will talk more (maybe) few things.... I intend to talk more about "hidden facts" - and by that I didn't mean necessarily "evil" Washington, Moscow, Vatican or similar - but more ancient examples, I have some similar comparative things from Byzantine sources as good one. Second, maybe more about exonyms and endonyms and broader question of prejudices (not often bad) "mixed facts", "battles of theories and why some are wrong and political not factual" and similar in older and newer times... Doing it for fun, but any newer generation historian (even un-pro) is welcome to our forum. Besides if someone reads it anyway then time well spent, miladies

[Ale]

but before that serious topics based on real history, a bit of humor...

unlike Sarmatian origin theory - which is to me so obvious and tracable not to be theory at all - there are various parallel, fictional and very unlikely connections from even greater antiquity, connecting some cities in Asia Minor, possible Greek sources and older civilizations with modern Serbs, for example city Xanthos. Never took them with great attention as they are completely incompatible with later sources from early middle ages - including not only Byzant, Italy, but also some Arab-Islamic travellers etc. etc. up to Heinrich the Lion in XII cent - describing life and inhabitans as more nomadic, protective, aggressive than people of letters living around (Mediterranean) for a long time... hence, more "transformed" and mixed Sarmatian nomads and riders. And uncompatible with DAI source itself, describing Serbs as not "huge mass of people" but relatively small tribe... but why not, if not for real facts, people should investigate out of curiousity without some real weight as possible. Sorry, we are likely more Iranic and more Persian )

Trick and humoristic part of that "theory" is that - in some far connected and fictional way considering Roman/Latin legend - they are from same region as founders of Rome, our Rome ... I would investigate but I am persona non grata in modern Turkey and there is reward for my head (just joking aiming at more modern history, of course)

will be back (maybe) with more serious things on things mentioned post before....

[HexCode]

A good ol' jukebox selection follows, courtesy of Father Time's Jurassic archives......

Have "you" ever reflected on the nature of the "pimp / prostitute" tandem ? Here are my... anthropological musings on the subject:

1) Like most prostitutes, populations crave for protection. In fact, the bigger the urban center, the more acutely felt the need for it; reason being, mega-city inhabitants are psychologically very vulnerable to feelings of "insignificance" and "uprootedness"; in other words, helplessness is a grand motivator for the urban masses to seek emotional security in... Democratic Caesarism.

2) The pimp phenomenon is most interesting, indeed. On one hand, pimps sweet-talk their "girls" on occasion. On the other hand, they do not hesitate to "discipline" those very same "girls" from time to time. The key observation here's that pimps are very adept at playing the "good cop, bad cop" game, all by themselves; they don't need partners. Also, unpredictability invariably works in a pimp's favor...

Certain populations adopt pimp-like ways... Rhetorically, they decry violence and claim that their attitudes and intentions towards other populations are... angelic. BUT, at the same time, they make absolutely sure that the "others" get the "message". Widespread availability of guns, gun violence, the death penalty, overcrowded prisons and so on are not just facts. Nay, they are pimp-like demonstrations to "girly" populations that real business is meant; on occasion, of course...

3) How about the prostitute phenomenon though ? Why do the "girls" take it ? Well, it's a mixture of inferiority feelings and admiration of the unapologetically powerful. Many "second-rated" populations are exactly like that... And the "pimps" know it all too well.

In the final analysis, is money a pimp's holy grail ? I don't think so. In my opinion, it's

power over others; the most powerful aphrodisiac known to man.

In other "words",

Anthropology --- ONE (1)
Angelic Rhetoric --- ZERO (0)

[Ale]

Besides, never understood the need to add anything to our history, nor any mythomania as part of history - it is characteristic of really unsecure nations or groups, or those with inferiority complex.... without need to be acused as person with "superiority complex" I never felt need to add and blur history, as it is to me is interesting and eventful enough - objectively lots of interesting stories, not to mention we had an empire of our own In that sense, only Sarmatian part is alright and to me looks factual and acceptable for schools.... hiding things to me is a crime though.

....so, to put just few lines about my previous thoughts about Byzantine sources - changed my mind about detailed analysis, not time nor place - while we all know that Byzant was also "mutation" in itself, and that name is also exonym from later centuries. Big subject in itself and many sources.... in short to my subject and relation to Serb origin and entity it is interesting that there are (simply put) two phases in their sources (but not in general, guess one could find opposite examples) and approach. First is earlier phase when clear tribal name is mentioned (similar to ancient uses), when there was some desire to talk about specifics of the tribe and maybe origin AND second phase when name was often "hidden" in many sources or masked calling Serbs often by regions, or as "Tribalii" or barbarians ... it coincide with the growth and power of then Serb kingdom and its expansion. My interpretation is that, in most instances, Greeks or Byzantines i.e. Romeans felt like they are losing control over former "border guard" and it became competitor, not an ally and they reacted in many sources by change of stance, different naming and general fall of quality in sources and less interest of Serb origin in new situation... I tried to put it maximally short as possible, hopefully understandable what I ment by mentioning Byzantine sources and "hidding facts". However, still the one exo-source of best quality for our history of the time and, often unconsciously ; ) they left some great lines.... for borders I remember one Greek/Byzant source from mid XIV century about "diplomat" crossing into Serb realm - it says how instantly "like wood demons" Serb patrols are around them from forests and "out of ground". Interesting to my previous subject to some extent... enough for now and for a few days, hopefully interesting as ever my miladies )

[HexCode]

A good ol' jukebox selection follows, courtesy of Father Time's Jurassic archives......

In my "quasi-barbarous" opinion, a country's military can never be a national army without:

a) The country being more or less coincident with the nation (if any).

b) Requiring all of its reasonably healthy males (and, if one gets high on notions of tough gender equality, females as well) to do some sort of military service.

Drawing a distinction between a mere country and a nation-state (UN parlance niceties notwithstanding) is important, of course (e.g., Iraq vs. Hungary). That said, universal, compulsory, military service is equally, if not more, important. Why ?

1) Invariably, a young conscript comes across a representative cross-section of youths that are his compatriots after all. This eye opening experience militates against the maintenance of the usual blinders associated with socioeconomic class particularisms. The rich kid may become more street smart. The poor girl with the great legs may realize that becoming a... "Natasha" may not be the only option available to her...

2) A population that knows quite a bit about... assault rifles is way more difficult to be imposed upon by elites controlling "specialized security forces". All the talk in the world about "democracies magically exercising civilian control over their militaries" isn't a Plan A; rather, it's Wishful Thinking A. Universal, compulsory, military service is more like Potential Obstacle A...

3) Last, but not least, a national army anchored on universal, compulsory, military service is a powerful demonstration of the shared, socio-historical consensus that must underlie a nation-state's founding and enduring mythologies... Easy ? Not in the least...

[Ale]

I think most people understand my general - without need to elaborate every detail - notion and idea about history and narratives (i.e. fighting them) is objective researsh and re-reading sources (not taking them as simple truth though) and always combining them, if possible... not only "national" (put quotation marks as tribal & feudal history is hardly national) but maybe other tribes around world have interesting details to look at again...

considering medieval for us, as I said before, combination of Italian states sources was great success. It had beaten some Byzantine narratives for example... while researching some outcomes could be "less favorable" for some egos - for example we are not from Xanthos or not, whole Europe did not celebrate victory in 1389 - some "more favorable" to some egos - for example yes our army was really good, international and equpied in later stages (but not big enough) or yes some our mines had real fame in southern Europe. Have fun and stay real, wherever you sit ;

[Ale]

...and skill of "reading between lines" is something to work on and be developed in education of historians ; ...example: famous Dante "putting Serb/Rascian king in inferno" (by interpretation) and accusing him of false money is not only artistic statement (even less anti-Rascian/Serb statement) but we by reading between lines got great and autoritive source confirming that he knew about "Serb dinar" in central Italy (some say he was also in use in his city). That's how it works...

i plan to tone down my old history posts (maybe) not because I lost interest though... before that - though I'm not aware of any Greek members, welcome - one could read my posts as with lot of "anti-Greek" sentiment. Not that at all, never even equalized Byzantine state with Greece.... Greek history is very nice and long (likeable) our just a bit cooler, pals

[HexCode]

A good ol' jukebox selection follows, courtesy of Father Time's Jurassic archives......

... whenever mongolic younglings felt the need to blow some steam they would cross the Kharkov river and find some Ukrainian girls willing to say "Da" (but only from behind so they would not recognize the enemy) ...

1) Young Mongols coming across the river but not coming across as... mongoloid idiots may have looked quite dashing, everything considered. At a minimum, they must have shown initiative where it counted (i.e., biologically / anthropologically)...

2) The "Da" girls, whether "Ukrainian", "Kievan Rus" or "Eastern Slavs", got it (yeah ! ) right ! We're talking big time... practical sophistication here... especially when it comes to... appraising the "enemy behind".

3) Cultures, the females of which are preoccupied with... positioning, are a breath of fresh air. Even their military commanders who fuss about... pre-positioning tend to have lots of fun with them, a "sine qua non" for sanity preservation...

4) It's too bad that ... never told "us" what really happened with those two "Kievan Rus" girls in Montreal, Canada. I mean, cultural attachment and eternal friendship pronouncements only go so far...

[Ale]

just for science though and pedant people, small correction to my words few posts above after finding English translation, every translation loses part of substance indeed. Nicephorus Gregoras wrote in mid XIV c: "When we passed the Struma River ... and came into thick woods, we were suddenly surrounded by men clad in black woolen garments, who darted forth from behind trees and rocks like devils out of the earth. They wore no heavy armor, being armed only with spears, battle-axes, and bows and arrows...." - correction be not really "wood demons" but "devils from earth" (love for the black color in outfit is also something present through centuries by sources on Serbs and those only border men, not feudal army with armor)

don't know about comparative thing in other tribes/organistaions of the time but sources and codex indicate that "border lords and guards" in Serb land were responsible if enemy army enters through their area uncountered/unalarmed. Hence, long organization of "border watch" was present (if not unique globally).... Sarmatae but nobody can deny language and absorbtion in Slavic element, nonetheless. (on Balkans or before regardless)

[Ale]

Nicephor: "Out of way barbarians! I'm new ambassador sent from Roman-Elenic emperor to your ..... uhm, "court"."

Border guard: "We are nor Varavians, we protect our empire from Greeks. And you are no "Amasador" to me you look like Greek in fact."

Nicephor: "Have no time for this... must see your... uhm "car" (emperor) Dusanos immediately to prevent war!"

Border guard: "His majesty is in the north, fighting Magyars"

Nicephor: "Magyars? What that be you must mean north in Turkey?" (Hungary in early Byzantine source)

Border guard: "No not Turkey, north against Magyars. Turks are in Constantinople he plans to fight them later with Romans from Venice."

Nicephor: "How dare you dirty little..... not-that-little axe-wielding barbarian!" ......lots of untranslatable Greek phrases in text....

Second border guard: "What he says?"


... for fun as always and quick, something from history, something from Asterix cartoon....

[HexCode]

It's pretty obvious to me that "conditions" haven't changed much, if at all, from those prevailing during the latter years of that "other" Web venue. In fact, virtually all active posters are still the same ones minus a few old "souls" ! The "Open Mike" topic which I launched as an "experiment" has now served my intended purpose. In my opinion, 2020 "deserves", well, much better. In any case, I'm "returning" to PGF's technical territory save, perhaps, for launching a new topic about chess and wargaming and the occasional, offbeat post. The "experiment" carried out under this topic has been somewhat interesting as well as practically... informative.

[Ale]

i think most know that line... I was able to find only French and German short clip (didn't search long maybe), French would be more effective but posting German version because it contains two scenes

https://youtu.be/1hyyg_c5fW4

...no need to understand it to understand joke, old but legendary cartoon. thumbs up to all who partly grew with it )

[Ale]

interestingly I had a lot of posts and research in recent months about Iranic* roots never imagined how headlines would look like starting new year some people say I have "abilities" - as demonstrated in this thread when I mentioned vulcanoes few days before one erupted in NZ - but it is always just coincidence

dislike about politics with foreigners, just interesting thought... Happy Caesar's new year in advance (starting in a week) - i'm out of subjects for "mike"...


* although it is complicated - Darius I actually attacked us and then Xerxes.... when we decided.... blah, blah ))

[Ale]

actually one can never run out of interesting subjects... at one moment I wanted to do separate thread in pub to talk my stories and history but instead used opportunity of "open mike" and words of Hex - everyone free to talk what he/she wants - so there is no off topic subject... too bad nobody is interested in older history, but it doesn't stop me from posting, to educate or intrigue, or entertain minds

alternative historians - while i recognize their right to speek freely - are often doing great disfavor to us approaching some subjects and history seriously and by flooding many fictional stories with little sources and facts. Making us finding some even closely scientific relations and lines in sources look like fantasy tellers as well. In that sense, there is some weight in every word and hopefully everyone understands where is the border between humor and seriousness in all of my posts. Some points are serious, adding to already confusing and mixed and migrating nature of a tribe, but no fantasy.... Roman influences are strong as explained - difference being our "founding fathers" weren't raised by she-wolf but he-wolf )) and whole Roman history repeating twice in our own - meaning city, enlargement, empire and desintegration just in much faster and shorter time frame Will be back eventually with more fun and history, hopefully not tiresome to objective, distant readers...

[Ale]

long since some historical post, but for this weekend got solid idea "from other place" to use Hex's wording style... i think it is interesting, although i consider most people around here as having decent knowledge on history (maybe not older that much)

i still meet some disbelief sometimes over internet about importance of mining in medieval Serbia and its connection that led to relatively small tribe without manpower, in region with lot of history and greater countries being able to grow to imperial status (before "death"). Of course, most important for mining "boom" and stability, Saxons were responsible with their skill and experience - but equally important is to note as i always do to foreign readers that it was region with long traditions and infrastructure since Roman state days. As this map (sources English universities) of Roman mines shows and makes it more understandable... to continue my thought, so when Serbs took over control of region and established kingdom, mining was only logical economy to develop and with little luck, famous glam silver (with percentage of gold) in some places, it allowed some shiny equipment and "dogs of war" (some were not dogs but loyal persons) i.e. expansion.

linked to it earlier to some readers, but i also put it here for better understanding. As i point out regulary, very few things in our history of the era were unique and lots of Roman influences from symbolism of eagle, wolves, surnames, monete to economy type

[Ale]

other one on same subject but with provincial borders and other interesting data. Like gold/silver mining (even less doubt why some rulers chosen name "denari/dinari" etc) or Dalmatia being province with most inscriptions found etc. Interestingly it is province of origin of both my paternal and maternal family line, plus one that originally included "birthplace" (i.e. Zeta or Doclea, and town Arsa/Ras) of Serb state... my only point is things to be interesting to readers and maybe something fresh, or unknown - while i believe most people around know

finally on that - take it as joke and trivia, but it might be true - many years ago talked to Italian and said "yeah, what if we both do very detailed genetical experiment and it proves that i'm more of Roman (Latin, Etruscan) origin than you". We both laughed and he said "might be true" ...maps are important historically and to mining point, this is internal humor based on lot of genetical mixing in both of Italy and Balkan peninsula... have a nice weekend and hope you like history.

[randowe]

I read your posts with great interest. Especially when you finally put maps on the table you can catch me Sorry, i can not add much to the discussion. Just send some greetings from Saxony (living not far from the world heritage site Rammelsberg, which was a important copper, silver and lead mine for more than 1000 years.)

[Ale]

hi Clemens, many thanks. Of course I know about you... not enough space to repeat importance of Saxons for those 300 years "of glory" (and eternal rememberance) maps (and pictures) are new thing for me on this forum and it shows... like kid with new toy )

by the way, subject of mixing and overlaping tribes and peoples of various eras (or same era) is important to significant extent to all historians (and us correcting them)) because it could lead to very wrong conclusions. That's why I say, for example, that our respect to wolves is more of ancient Roman nature even though symbol of wolf is not unique nor lonely in Serbs (for example), rather pan-European (and broader). But in our case (maybe other too) wolf is (similar to Roman story) positive character and related to human survival against all odds... etc. etc. Similary i don't to fall into danger of stealing "symbols or practices" from others that's - when there is a need - i'm ready to note what is (probably) from other overlaping peoples Eagle is also symbol of power and mythical representation, but in our case it was introduced in XIV century to symbolize "Roman empire reborn" (in subjective way of our rulers) etc. etc. many examples

when it comes to biology and DNA, that's different subject and very hard to prove in exact way - that's why I and all objective persons (like mentioned Italian) leave a space for posibilites of origin that is not related to being part of language or culture

Short historical intemezzo by me, until other historical subject to mention - back to games for now

[Ale]

actually one more thing before that....

people (domestic, foreign unimportant) tend to forget important factors/facts and are often "blinded" (or tricked) by later events. So, lets het back to wolves - people often forget that in time when some mythical or fiary tale elements entered "Serb psyche" they were still laregely pagan and there was not yet strong divide between "catholicism & orthodoxy" (in XI c, while myth was accepted at say 7-9th century) so Roman story wasn't "catholic related" to mind of tribesmen. They liked it, wolf a protector of child was just tribal story they liked (for example) Besides, everybody know that Serbia was also border land with influences of both sides (after divide and schismatic period). So question wasn't religious at all as sympathy for "Romans" wasn't as well...

besides, it was area and folk with influences of both factions and some rulers (like emperor-god)) while being firmly othodox themselves never "hated passionately" catholics and cooperated. Also (unrelated) it is stupid to believe that Romanic people (or Albanians for example) weren't incorporated in significant numbers in corpus of Serb kingdom and tribe.

just for clearness, there is always chance such things (i can say a lot about) are new to someone. ) ancient history is fun

[Ale]

that's why i sometimes stick to my old Rome - history is much longer but much less complicated and more known, less guessing about origin

no maps for Clemens (nothing interesting) just one musical theme i used lately... in wrong thread, but it won't repeat (last music here) i consider it nice getalong with maps and recent posts )

https://youtu.be/bPt3jjvLL74

know them, Italians doing some stuff, nice for "relaxation" .... they like ancients, hope they are nor fascist though Mentioning it, Mussolini did much greater archeological damage to old Rome than it "propagated it", by building autostrada around Arena & over Meta Sudans Bravo, at least he didn't remove arch of Constantine for own monument

[Ale]

for folk with so many "wolves" (as names and last names) somehow illogical that theory about it being tribe of primary shepherds (near Volga estuary located first) can be true ....but as explained so many chances and posibilities, some would say "conspiracy theories" with some percent of truth. For those liking them another "Rome connection" is found in cute way - in XIX century Serb uprising flag had boar head on it. And by Plinius the Elder (great man, thanks for mentions)) old kingdom and republican legions of Rome had few symbols as standards (before eagle becoming dominant) - eagle, wolf, boar ...we will never know so sticking to sources is only way not to be "revolutionary and too fantastic". And we all know there are no sources except DAI some tried to censor later ) ... to go back to first sentence in this paragraph, maybe idea of border guards (and hunters dominantly and at first) not shephards is more correct.

not so interesting to broader public i guess, due to tribe size and irrelevance in global history, but all this was fun to write and to think about personally, thanks to all reading It was coincidence that my first post in this thread mentioned Rome as joke to Hex' words, so it is fair to finish this part with it. From Servius Tullius to Constantine, great story .... i think i'm over now but who would bet on it - there was no discussion Clemens, i just used oportunity of "mike" for own research Clemens, no "pro et contra" just some historical sources and teories there ) Ave & ciao to all.

[Ale]

just want to say .... ..... it's open forum of course and everybody can read it and because of that it is important. There was nothing political in my words, when it comes to "daily or today" politics. I have sometimes very "rafined" humor and can be with primese of satire. But just historical research there in my posts. Mainly aiming at Italian post, know a lot about Italian politics myself and I don't see any fascist there, it is somehow offensive word it's important.

when it comes to research itself I'm sometimes (if intrigued) very studious and look for details - so in this case went as deep as reading about Darius I of Persia war against Scytho-Sarmats, to ecosystems and flora and fauna of regions west of Volga delta, looking for clues and what other said Found interesting things which may support and may not support research... when it comes to medieval part, care only about truth and unquestionable importance of Italian states to our state, no anti-Greek bias but it was as it was then... Roman "gene" story is cute and might be possible in some fantastic way, showing itself in previous desire of enlargement and (mild) domination and lets just consider it likable story.

short summary and important things. any opinion and eventual persons with same interests welcome... must admit i'm significantly less interested in modern history and political talks, no "thread hijack" from Hex